(Louis Gentile) wrote in message . com...
Thanks for the info. I should have realized that my triple A battery
cannot run FAA equipment. The stations I checked had "TSNO" in the RMK
section of the obs as soon as personell were evacuated. Thank you for
telling me about the connections being severed. I didn't think of that
when I posted, because back in our days it didn't make a difference.
SOAs were still logged in, so the climatological record was not
interupted, not to say what the case is today because it's been a long
time if you know what I mean. When the downsizing began I was informed
about what this was going to mean. (1) The loss of vital observation
data, not detectable by satellite, that would no longer be used in
forecasting due to no on sight meteorologist or meterological
technician. Over the past seven years, we have already seen some
situations where timely amendments to the forecast would have been
made had this data been available. (2) The effect on safety at
airports. (3) Increased danger of loss of data during power failure.
The automated system has been valuable in providing us with a
significant increase in sites. However, we still need more stations
with on site personell. Your post was very well written also. Thanks
for filling me in on some important points. Take care, Lou

Most observations are logged into NCDC after communications are
reestablished. Of course, there is the issue of whether the ASOS/AWOS
failed completely (i.e., wasn't even operating). I checked and this
seems to have been the case with the Fort Pierce (KFPR) ASOS during
Hurricane Frances. There are also many cases where much of the
equipment failed, such as Orlando Executive Airports (KORL). Of
course there are many possible explanations of this, including impacts
by flying debris... but again, they did fail, not just lose
transmission capability.

I do agree, we do need more on-site observers. We also need more
reliable automatic systems. Its unfortunate, but I don't think we are
going to get both.

=====
Raymond C. Martin, Jr.
Associate Meteorologist, AccuWeather Inc.- http://www.accuweather.com/
New Jersey Expressways and Tollways - http://www.njfreeways.com/
Ray's Winter Storm Archive - http://www.njfreeways.com/weather/


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(Louis Gentile) wrote in message . com...
"Meteorologically Disturbed" wrote in message news:liV5d.125744$D%.14979@attbi_s51...
Lou,

While nicely written, Blue Hill's plea for help compares apples to oranges
and overlooks several key facts. Firstly, your home "Davis" or whatever
other station doesn't require much in the way of voltage and can survive
many hours on batteries. The AWOS/ASOS network contains an integrated
network of sensors and electronics, including several high voltage
instruments (ceilometer for one), and most definitely cannot operate on
battery backup. The exception of this is the barometer which is a standalone
unit. Secondly, these surface observations don't forget are owned now by the
FAA and are first and foremost for aviation use. If the airport itself is
closed to traffic, then in all likelihood there's no reason to maintain the
system during a failure.

However, what's most likely the case is that many of the ASOS/AWOS were up
and running and logging data internally just fine, but their dial out
connectivity was severred. The same would apply to your home weather
station. If you're running on battery power but have no way to transmit your
observation, then the same problem applies.

As for lightning, almost all of these stations DO have lightning sensors. A
check of NLDN data across Florida showed no thunderstorm activity associated
with the landfall of Jeanne. Given it's tropical nature, nighttime landfall,
overall weak appearance, and lack of sustained 50 dBZ echoes, I wouldn't
have expected lighthning anyways. The only thunderstorms I saw were
yesterday afternoon just offshore of West Palm, more due to afternoon
heating than anything. These were included in the PBI observations.




"Louis Gentile" wrote in message
m...
discussion.txt
Address:http://www.bluehill.org/discussion.txt Changed:2:43 PM on
Friday, September 24, 2004

The site above is a reminder of the observations of yester-year when a
much better description of weather was regularly available through the
surface observations and the greatest care was taken to avoid the most
trivial mistake. There were instances of updated forecasts due to data
that the trained observer recorded that is not easily detected by
satellite. I checked for observations from central and coastal Florida
over the past 48 hours. No on site lightning detectors at the sites I
checked. Equipment failure before wind gusts reach 60KT. My home
weather station can do better than that and it runs for thirty hours
after power failure - on triple A cells. Power blackouts - with no
back-up generator. How much does it cost to repair or install a
lightning detector? Is our government's debt so severe that we cannot
even afford a workable system and have fallen behind some other
nation's observation systems as a result? In the lower 48, plus
Alaska, I have to go ten, twenty, and thirty years back into the
logbooks in order to retrieve accurate and detailed surface
observations, especially when studying events related to thunderstorm
activity, nor'easters, blizzards and tropical cyclones.

Regards,
Lou


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Just would like to add one comment. Back in my days the power
interruption usually did not result in a total communications failure.
The phones still worked.

A very good point. Of course this isn't always the case with
hurricanes, where the phones can fail due to such widespread network
damage.

At the same time, an ASOS/AWOS which is only connected by one data
line can fail if that one line fails. I am not familiar enough with
ASOS/AWOS communications and connections to readily comment on it any
more than that.

=====
Raymond C. Martin, Jr.
Associate Meteorologist, AccuWeather Inc.- http://www.accuweather.com/
New Jersey Expressways and Tollways - http://www.njfreeways.com/
Ray's Winter Storm Archive - http://www.njfreeways.com/weather/


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(Smerby) wrote in message . com...
You could have not said it better. It is a joke how these stations
malfunctioned in Florida. During Frances'landfall there were no
surface obs coming in between Daytona Beach and West Palm Beach. That
is a long stretch of real estate with no weather being reported, that
kind of stuff happens in a third world country. That data was need to
save peoples lives and property and some of the same stations went
down in Jeanne, long before any hurricane force winds arrived. What
really floored me was that the Punta Gorda site took a direct hit from
Charley and stayed up, reporting critical wind speed data that was
used to warn the people in Charley's path. Why would one site get
blasted and stay on line when other sites go down with much less wind.
What was the difference between the two reporting sites.

Smerby
www.accuweather.com

A very valid point that I also don't understand.

=====
Raymond C. Martin, Jr.
Associate Meteorologist, AccuWeather Inc.- http://www.accuweather.com/
New Jersey Expressways and Tollways - http://www.njfreeways.com/
Ray's Winter Storm Archive - http://www.njfreeways.com/weather/


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"Meteorologically Disturbed" wrote in message news:BvV6d.147260$D%.2374@attbi_s51...
1.) Punta Gorda ASOS did not stay online. It was put out of commission
subsequently after a 109 mph wind gust, some 10-15 minutes before the
strongest winds hit (go back and note the time and surface pressure of that
observation).

Yes, but not until reporting the 109 mph wind gust. A majority of the
stations which failed with Frances did not recieve anything near to
that wind speed. So why did they fail?

2.) How would surface observations have saved lives and property,
considering hurricane warnings had been out for 2 days. This is the most
ridiculous nonsense I've read this week and it's only Thursday. Would the
hurricane go "OH NO I'VE BEEN MEASURED!" and quickly weaken to prevent
further damage? LOL...wouldn't expect anything else out of the "Smerb".

Surface observations save lives and property many times. They are
instrumental in knowing how strong the winds are as they actually come
onshore. It was due to, among other things, surface observations that
NHC kept Jeanne a tropical storm until well north into Georgia, even
though it had been on land for over 24 hours already and the radar
signature had deteriorated significantly. If it wasn't for those
surface observations, it would be much more difficult to know that
strong gusty winds were coming northward through Georgia.

What do you proprose as a solution? If you actually took the time to read
the previous posts, you're realize that the obs are under FAA control now.
When the airport is closed for commercial traffic, they simply don't give a
hoot! Chalk one up for the ol' NWS here where you had dedicated
meteorologists and a true passion for observations and climatology. Thank
Uncle George W for that transition! So, instead of blasting at a poor,
defenseless instrument array full of metal parts, why not contact the local
airport representative(s) and ask them how their power feed and more
importantly their COMMUNICATIONS feed are wired and why they failed in
tropical storm force winds?

Smerby did not mention the NWS as the blame for these ASOS problems.
He just said it was a problem.

Sorry, but Lou's posts seem for more up and up on the intelligence scale.

And yours have just plumetted.

Tell Uncle Joel and Aunt Barry I said hi!

Papa Smurf

Why don't you grow some balls and use your real name? Because it
would reveal you were a former employee? Ah ha!

=====
Raymond C. Martin, Jr.
Associate Meteorologist, AccuWeather Inc.- http://www.accuweather.com/
New Jersey Expressways and Tollways - http://www.njfreeways.com/
Ray's Winter Storm Archive - http://www.njfreeways.com/weather/


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(Raymond C Martin Jr) wrote in message . com...
(Louis Gentile) wrote in message om...
discussion.txt
Address:http://www.bluehill.org/discussion.txt Changed:2:43 PM on
Friday, September 24, 2004

The site above is a reminder of the observations of yester-year when a
much better description of weather was regularly available through the
surface observations and the greatest care was taken to avoid the most
trivial mistake. There were instances of updated forecasts due to data
that the trained observer recorded that is not easily detected by
satellite. I checked for observations from central and coastal Florida
over the past 48 hours. No on site lightning detectors at the sites I
checked. Equipment failure before wind gusts reach 60KT. My home
weather station can do better than that and it runs for thirty hours
after power failure - on triple A cells. Power blackouts - with no
back-up generator. How much does it cost to repair or install a
lightning detector? Is our government's debt so severe that we cannot
even afford a workable system and have fallen behind some other
nation's observation systems as a result? In the lower 48, plus
Alaska, I have to go ten, twenty, and thirty years back into the
logbooks in order to retrieve accurate and detailed surface
observations, especially when studying events related to thunderstorm
activity, nor'easters, blizzards and tropical cyclones.

Regards,
Lou

It is sad that the observations we had years ago are decreasingly
accurate today. Hopefully one day things will be back to the
standards they used to be. At the same time, we should probably
remember the thing's we've gained:

1 - Many more reporting stations, often in rather remote locations.

2 - More reliable reporting schedules... an automated station isn't
going to fall asleep or go home for breakfast...

3 - Increased accuracy in reports, including SLP, temperature, wind,
ceiling (below 12,000 feet), and rainfall...

Of course, there are some things that will take a while to improve,
including:

1 - Snowfall and snow rate.

2 - True sky cover.

3 - Precipitation type.

It will take some advancements in technology to get these items
reported more accurately.

One thing that is dissapointing is that at many airports that formerly
had part-time observers, they are still there but just monitoring the
system. The FAA has a rating system for airports based on observation
quality: (from http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/SWO/appendix_d.htm )

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++

Service Level D

This level of service consists of an ASOS continually measuring the
atmosphere at a point near the runway. The ASOS senses and measures
the weather parameters listed below:
- Wind
- Visibility
- Precipitation/Obstruction to vision
- Cloud height and sky cover
- Temperature and dewpoint
- Altimeter
- Freezing rain capability
- Lightning reporting capability

KSMQ, Someset Airport, Somerville, NJ is an example of Service Level
D.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++

Service Level C

Service Level C consists of all the elements of Service Level D plus
augmentation and backup of the system by a human observer or an air
traffic control specialist on location nearby. The National Air
Traffic Controllers Association (NATCA), the group representing the
interests of the air traffic controllers, and the FAA have agreed that
at this level of service, the air traffic control specialists are
allowed the option of adding operationally significant remarks. Backup
consists of inserting the correct value if the system malfunctions or
is unrepresentative. Augmentation consists of adding the weather
elements listed below, if observed.

- Thunderstorms
- Tornadoes
- Hail
- Virga
- Volcanic ash
- Tower visibility
- Any reportable weather elements considered operationally significant
by the observer

During hours that the observing facility is closed, the site reverts
to Service Level D.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++

Service Level B

Service Level B consists of all the elements of service levels C and D
plus the elements listed below, if observed.

- Longline RVR* at precedented sites (may be instantaneous readout)
- Freezing drizzle versus freezing rain
- Ice pellets
- Snow depth and snow increasing rapidly remarks
- Thunderstorm and lightning location remarks
- Observed significant weather not at the station remarks

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++

Service Level A

Service Level A consists of all the elements of service levels B, C
and D plus the elements listed below, if observed.

- 10 minute longline RVR* at precedented sites or additional
visibility increments of 1/8, 1/16 and 0
- Sector visibility
- Variable sky condition
- Cloud layers above 12,000 feet and cloud types
- Widespread dust, sand and other obscurations
- Volcanic eruptions

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++

Much more information can be found he
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/SWO/index....0OF%20CONTENTS

=====
Raymond C. Martin, Jr.
Associate Meteorologist, AccuWeather Inc.- http://www.accuweather.com/
New Jersey Expressways and Tollways - http://www.njfreeways.com/
Ray's Winter Storm Archive - http://www.njfreeways.com/weath

Thanks for the info and the site. I've already noticed some changes
regarding coding:

(c)**For BCFG (fog patches) to be coded, fog shall randomly cover part
of the station, extend to at least 6*feet above the ground, with the
apparent visibility in the fog patch or bank less than 5/8SM while
visibility over other parts of the station is greater than or equal to
5/8SM

Now the older one from 1999 as shown in the Aviation and Weather
Services manual shows the following.

BCFG or PRFG: used to indicate patchy fog or partial fog only if
prevaiing visibility is 7 SM or greater. (no longer in use)

This was not the only change that was made and I like to keep up with
these changes. Thanks again for the site.

Regards,
Lou

Why don't you grow some balls and use your real name? Because it
would reveal you were a former employee? Ah ha!


LOL. So glad I did my weekly poll of this dribble. You couldn't be any
farther from the truth. The tour of I was given of that sweat shop as a
freshman some many years ago was enough to steer me and the rest of my
colleagues away from that dump. Oh wait, was there a clue in that last
sentence?! And then they unveiled the NEW building....such a move out of
scattered small houses. Yes, for those of you unaware, AccuWeather was run
for decades out of converted residences in State College. So...why not spend
millions on a state-of-the-art facility instead of the personnel's wages? I
mean it's the facility that makes the forecasts anyways, right?? Sorry, Ray.
Only a fool with a C or less grade point average and a MUST HAVE desire to
live in State College would succumb to the hours, wages, ethics, and poor
benefits offered by said organization. State College is a GREAT town (one
I'd personally rate in the top 10 in this country), but if you think I would
give up six figures for $25-30K per year just to live in SCE, you have GOT
to be kidding. My expertise isn't worth an hour of Joel's time. Did I hurt
your feelings Ray? The statistics don't lie. It's a shame that you couldn't
do better, you deserve it. So many have seen the light and left, why not
follow suit?

Of course that's getting off the topic and I have yet to see either one of
you actually research the power/comms issues with the FL observation network
during the hurricanes. Is that too much work? I already gave you several
leads. I mean I know AccuWeather is heavily involved in research and all
sarcasm. Such a large contingency at the AMS conference (LOL!!). Another
Clue!

Brainy Smurf


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"Meteorologically Disturbed" wrote in message news:CrEad.220560$MQ5.176351@attbi_s52...

Why don't you grow some balls and use your real name? Because it
would reveal you were a former employee? Ah ha!


LOL. So glad I did my weekly poll of this dribble. You couldn't be any
farther from the truth. The tour of I was given of that sweat shop as a
freshman some many years ago was enough to steer me and the rest of my
colleagues away from that dump. Oh wait, was there a clue in that last
sentence?! And then they unveiled the NEW building....such a move out of
scattered small houses. Yes, for those of you unaware, AccuWeather was run
for decades out of converted residences in State College. So...why not spend
millions on a state-of-the-art facility instead of the personnel's wages? I
mean it's the facility that makes the forecasts anyways, right?? Sorry, Ray.
Only a fool with a C or less grade point average and a MUST HAVE desire to
live in State College would succumb to the hours, wages, ethics, and poor
benefits offered by said organization. State College is a GREAT town (one
I'd personally rate in the top 10 in this country), but if you think I would
give up six figures for $25-30K per year just to live in SCE, you have GOT
to be kidding. My expertise isn't worth an hour of Joel's time. Did I hurt
your feelings Ray? The statistics don't lie. It's a shame that you couldn't
do better, you deserve it. So many have seen the light and left, why not
follow suit?

Without a name or company affiliation, your post here is meaningless
anonymous usenet drivel. Why don't you reveal yourself and your
company affiliation? I showed this to one person who after reading it
believed that you were a CURRENT AccuWeather employee.

Of course that's getting off the topic and I have yet to see either one of
you actually research the power/comms issues with the FL observation network
during the hurricanes. Is that too much work? I already gave you several
leads.

You gave us your theories about communiction/power problems. However,
I actually watch stations on a regular basis as well as check NCDC
files from time to time. Your claim about communication problems
appears baseless, because of the following: When an ASOS cannot
transmit, it files the observation internally and appends it with
FIBI. Such was the case in December, when KPNE could not send
reports. All of those observations are now in the NCDC database.
However, this is not the case with the Florida stations.

As far as power problems, while that may be the case with some (and
you completely ignored my arguments of why power should NOT be an
issue, so I won't repost them again), again there are other stations
where clearly instrument failure was a problem. How do you explain
observations like these?

METAR KORL 050853Z 04028G35KT 10SM RA SCT015 BKN021 OVC026 25/24 A2946
RMK PK WND 06039/0828 SLP978 P0009 60026 T02500244 56029
METAR KORL 050953Z 24/24 A2943 RMK RAEMM PRESFR SLP968 P0006 T02440239
PWINO $
METAR KORL 051053Z A2939 RMK SLPNO PWINO FZRANO $
METAR KORL 051153Z A2937 RMK SLPNO 6//// 7//// 56028 PWINO FZRANO $

Looks like instrument failure to me.

=====
Raymond C. Martin, Jr.
Associate Meteorologist, AccuWeather Inc.- http://www.accuweather.com/
New Jersey Expressways and Tollways - http://www.njfreeways.com/
Ray's Winter Storm Archive - http://www.njfreeways.com/weather/


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