Sorry if I sound like a buffoon to you meteorologists. I'm simply a layman
that knows nothing about this but wants to learn. I did some searching and
it is said that warm rising air keeps clouds up. Is it possible the static
charge in the clouds could also have an effect? Something like anti-gravity
on a small scale? Thanks.

DaveL

"dave" nospam wrote i
...

Sorry if I sound like a buffoon to you meteorologists. I'm simply a
layman that knows nothing about this but wants to learn. I did some
searching and it is said that warm rising air keeps clouds up. Is it
possible the static charge in the clouds could also have an effect?

Of course yes. " Thus charged water clusters can function as electron
reservoirs for chemical reactions involving electron transfer to or from the
reacting species"
See: http://www.watercluster.com/

The stronger charged water clusters migrate higher. So the thunderstorm
clouds are very high.
S*

On Aug 2, 7:06 am, "dave" nospam wrote:

Sorry if I sound like a buffoon to you meteorologists. I'm simply a layman
that knows nothing about this but wants to learn. I did some searching and
it is said that warm rising air keeps clouds up. Is it possible the static
charge in the clouds could also have an effect? Something like anti-gravity
on a small scale? Thanks.

No. The tiny effect that a cloud with a static charge would feel from
electromagnetic forces would be an inverse square *attractive* force
towards the ground. The ground is a good enough conductor that forms
an equipotential surface with electric field lines coming out
perpendicular. Charge on the ground arranges itself to cancel out the
horizontal component of electric field. It also allows Faraday
screening cages to protect you from lightning bolts.

One way of matching these boundary conditions without solving the
maths explicitly is to imagine an equal and opposite image charge the
same distance under the ground. It would only really have an
appreciable effect if the cloud was very close to the ground.

The cloud behaves dynamically as if it feels the influence of this
other fictitious image charge cloud reflected in the ground. I
couldn't find a nice online demo of this well known electrostatic
principle that was light on the maths.

The closest I could find was for a test charge above a cylinder at
Berkley.

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~fajans...iles/frame.htm

(choose unshielded and 100% shielding for an idea of how the Earth
affects the field from a very high cloud)

Regards,
Martin Brown

On Aug 2, 8:36 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"dave" nospam wrote ...

Sorry if I sound like a buffoon to you meteorologists. I'm simply a
layman that knows nothing about this but wants to learn. I did some
searching and it is said that warm rising air keeps clouds up. Is it
possible the static charge in the clouds could also have an effect?

Of course yes. " Thus charged water clusters can function as electron
reservoirs for chemical reactions involving electron transfer to or from the
reacting species"
See:http://www.watercluster.com/

The stronger charged water clusters migrate higher. So the thunderstorm
clouds are very high.
S*

It is a mystery why the clouds of vapour don't condense though. It is
as if some magical force is holding them apart. At ground level in
some forms of mist you can actually see the droplets in suspension.

It doesn't make sense that they don't fall to earth.

But in lenticular clouds for example, we know that a strong wind is
blowing where they develop. This wind loses moisture owing to the
physics of water and latent heat etc. And this stream carries as much
moisture away as it deposits.

"Weatherlawyer" wrote
oups.com...
On Aug 2, 8:36 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"dave" nospam wrote
...

Sorry if I sound like a buffoon to you meteorologists. I'm simply a
layman that knows nothing about this but wants to learn. I did some
searching and it is said that warm rising air keeps clouds up. Is it
possible the static charge in the clouds could also have an effect?

Of course yes. " Thus charged water clusters can function as electron
reservoirs for chemical reactions involving electron transfer to or from
the
reacting species"
See:http://www.watercluster.com/

The stronger charged water clusters migrate higher. So the thunderstorm
clouds are very high.
S*

It is a mystery why the clouds of vapour don't condense though. It is
as if some magical force is holding them apart. At ground level in
some forms of mist you can actually see the droplets in suspension.

It doesn't make sense that they don't fall to earth.

But in lenticular clouds for example, we know that a strong wind is
blowing where they develop. This wind loses moisture owing to the
physics of water and latent heat etc. And this stream carries as much
moisture away as it deposits.

It seems to me that your answer for the question: " Is it possible the
static charge in the clouds could also have an effect?" is yes. Am I right?
S*

"Rodney Blackall" wrote
...
In article , dave nospam
wrote:
Sorry if I sound like a buffoon to you meteorologists. I'm simply a
layman that knows nothing about this but wants to learn. I did some
searching and it is said that warm rising air keeps clouds up. Is it
possible the static charge in the clouds could also have an effect?
Something like anti-gravity on a small scale? Thanks.

DaveL
There is a semi-permanent "fair weather field" of several hundred volts
per
metre near ground level that does not seem to have much effect on
anything.

The "fair weather field" means that the surface of the Earth has the exces
of electrons. The photoelectric effect (fair weather = much UV) makes that
the electrons migrate up with the water vapour. The bigger charge the higher
clouds.


A wet fog visibly precipitates its larger droplets.

It means that they had small charge. If the charge is big droplets do not
fall. In extreme condition first must be lightning stroke and next rain
(after lightning stroke the rain is heavier)

Away from the ground, vertical air currents will be overwhelmingly more
important than the static field. If the field is really large, as in a
thunderstorm, then the vertical currents will be very strong and largely
the
cause of the charging.

May be that "vertical air currents" are the electric winds in its nature.
S*

On Aug 3, 3:17 pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"Weatherlawyer" glegroups.com...



On Aug 2, 8:36 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"dave" nospam wrote
...

Sorry if I sound like a buffoon to you meteorologists. I'm simply a
layman that knows nothing about this but wants to learn. I did some
searching and it is said that warm rising air keeps clouds up. Is it
possible the static charge in the clouds could also have an effect?

Of course yes. " Thus charged water clusters can function as electron
reservoirs for chemical reactions involving electron transfer to or from
the
reacting species"
See:http://www.watercluster.com/

The stronger charged water clusters migrate higher. So the thunderstorm
clouds are very high.
S*

It is a mystery why the clouds of vapour don't condense though. It is
as if some magical force is holding them apart. At ground level in
some forms of mist you can actually see the droplets in suspension.

It doesn't make sense that they don't fall to earth.

But in lenticular clouds for example, we know that a strong wind is
blowing where they develop. This wind loses moisture owing to the
physics of water and latent heat etc. And this stream carries as much
moisture away as it deposits.

It seems to me that your answer for the question: " Is it possible the
static charge in the clouds could also have an effect?" is yes. Am I right?

I remember reading an article about electrical charge dispersal in the
open atmosphere.ruling out that it can build up in clouds to the
extent that it causes lightning.

Which indicates that the charge must be developed instantaneously or
that the source must be related to another as yet unrecorded or
unassociated phenomenon.

If there was a charge involved in holding up a cloud, it would be
measurable in all cloud, at all times.

It is difficult to understand how droplets can just hang in the sky
though. There is a discussion on the behaviour of condensation in
conditions of 100% humidity in the FAQ for the uk.sci.weather
newsgroup.

(Not that that sort of question ever gets asked on that newsgroup. It
isn't actually a FAQ so much as an encyclopoedia of meteorology. The
previous owner or host for it aught to consider publishing it or
selling a CD with it on, IMO. I think it would be a best seller.)

On Aug 6, 2:25 pm, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Aug 3, 3:17 pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

{snipped for brevity]


I remember reading an article about electrical charge dispersal in the
open atmosphere.ruling out that it can build up in clouds to the
extent that it causes lightning.

Which indicates that the charge must be developed instantaneously or
that the source must be related to another as yet unrecorded or
unassociated phenomenon.

If there was a charge involved in holding up a cloud, it would be
measurable in all cloud, at all times.

Depends if the charge potential is large enough to break-down the air
insulation. Otherwise you have a nice fat capacitor floating around.


It is difficult to understand how droplets can just hang in the sky
though.

Rather depends on the droplet size you're talking about. Updraughts
will keeps them up there until they are too heavy to be supported.
Below that and you're into water vapour which is a gas.

"Rodney Blackall" wrote
...
In article , Szczepan Bia³ek
wrote:
Away from the ground, vertical air currents will be overwhelmingly more
important than the static field. If the field is really large, as in a
thunderstorm, then the vertical currents will be very strong and
largely the cause of the charging.

May be that "vertical air currents" are the electric winds in its nature.
S*

No. It is easy to predict when these strong upcurrents can occur in the
mid-troposphere from the degree of instability in the atmosphere. When
they
can be large the weather forecast will include thunder.

The electrification of clouds is a complex topic of continuing research, I
suggest you "google" the subject.

I did that already. Everybody are continuing research in situation where all
is simple. Droplets which hang in the air are charged (like in the
Millican's experiment). The excess of electrons are in continual
circulation. In sunny days they migrate up attached to water vapour and next
fall down as current and lightning. When droplets loss the charge they fall
down.
S*

" wrote
ups.com...
On Aug 3, 3:17 pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"Weatherlawyer"
glegroups.com...



On Aug 2, 8:36 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"dave" nospam wrote
...

Sorry if I sound like a buffoon to you meteorologists. I'm simply a
layman that knows nothing about this but wants to learn. I did some
searching and it is said that warm rising air keeps clouds up. Is
it
possible the static charge in the clouds could also have an effect?

Of course yes. " Thus charged water clusters can function as electron
reservoirs for chemical reactions involving electron transfer to or
from
the
reacting species"
See:http://www.watercluster.com/

The stronger charged water clusters migrate higher. So the
thunderstorm
clouds are very high.
S*

It is a mystery why the clouds of vapour don't condense though. It is
as if some magical force is holding them apart. At ground level in
some forms of mist you can actually see the droplets in suspension.

It doesn't make sense that they don't fall to earth.

But in lenticular clouds for example, we know that a strong wind is
blowing where they develop. This wind loses moisture owing to the
physics of water and latent heat etc. And this stream carries as much
moisture away as it deposits.

It seems to me that your answer for the question: " Is it possible the
static charge in the clouds could also have an effect?" is yes. Am I
right?

I remember reading an article about electrical charge dispersal in the
open atmosphere.ruling out that it can build up in clouds to the
extent that it causes lightning.

You must recognise the charge from the voltage. The charge cannot build up.
But when the droplets join together the voltage is raising (capacitance of
sphere) and it can cause lightning.

Which indicates that the charge must be developed instantaneously or
that the source must be related to another as yet unrecorded or
unassociated phenomenon.

See the above.

If there was a charge involved in holding up a cloud, it would be
measurable in all cloud, at all times.

Under clouds the electric field is opposite to that in the sunny days.
S*