\frac{1}{R}\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}} wrote:
Tom McDonald wrote:
\frac{1}{R}\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}} wrote:
David wrote:
Accuweather
http://global-warming.accuweather.co...ease_in_1.html


"Princeton University physicist Dr. William
Happer told a congressional committee
hearing on Wednesday that global warming
fears are 'mistaken' and that the earth is
currently in a 'CO2 famine now' when you
look at carbon dioxide (CO2) levels through
geological time."

David Christainsen - Meteorologist
Will Happer --- ROFL!!

You have to love a guy who holds the Cyrus *Fogg* Brackett chair in
Physics when he tells us that "most of the greenhouse effect for the
earth is due to water vapor and clouds"!

No, I don't love this guy, first because of my gender, but second
because I think he is wrong.

Yup. I just like the juxtaposition of "Fogg" and "water vapor and
clouds". Struck me as funny, anyhoo.

And, of course, the halcyon days of 80,000,000 years ago he goes on
about occurred when the continents were in radically different positions
than they are now, and the early primates lived in very limited parts of
the Earth.

Even ca. 30,000,000 ya, when the CO2 level was probably high enough for
even Happer to be satiated, and the mean temperature was toasty, our
ancestors were still limited to specific habitats, from which they
didn't do much moving.

Not all that long ago, a big chunk of Maya civilization crashed due to
long droughts caused by changes in atmospheric and oceanic temperatures.
Translating that to today, when there is next to no margin for such
major crashes in the food supply, and next to no space for folks living
in low-lying areas like Bangladesh to move uphill ahead of sea level
rise, and Hot Happy Happer's hilarity falls flat.

I downloaded and read his written testimony before Boxer's committee.
He's a dab hand at propaganda, but he does not seem to have a good grasp
of the archaeological, geological or historical realities that are
affected by global warming.


I get the clue, is there somewhere a web link?

To Happer's testimony:

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...4-31f5ae8e8a42

Or:

http://tinyurl.com/cn8hbl

For the concept that a long drought, or series of droughts,
helped bring an end to Classic Maya civilization, here is a link
to a Google Search page using the key words, "maya" "drought"
"collapse".

Several of the links appear to be to be to the same set of
studies; and the ones I looked at (most of them) were pretty good
articles, for journalistic interpretations of the underlying
science.

One cavil: "Mayan" is *not* a general adjectival form. "Mayan" is
properly used almost entirely wrt the languages spoken by the
Maya. The proper adjectival form for other uses is simply "Maya".
E.g., the Maya civilization; Maya houses; Maya raised field
agriculture; Maya pyramids, etc.

The link to the reference google search page:

http://www.google.com/search?q=maya+...006-12,GGGL:en

(I couldn't get a TinyURL that would work -- but the long version
seems to work. If it doesn't, just google using the three key words.)

Evidence is strong that there were major droughts that coincided
with periods of Classic Maya decline, and ultimately collapse.

To be sure, it is not shown that these droughts were the single,
overriding factor leading to Maya decline and collapse. But other
major factors, including overpopulation, environmental
degradation, social upheaval and war, are problems we also face
today.

Adding climate change that causes or aids desertification and/or
concentration of population to today's issues, as could happen
with increased global warming and its concomitant change in
weather patterns and sea levels, is something that could bite us
in the ass, hard, *if we don't prepare for it*.

If Happer's happy day of increased atmospheric CO2 and higher
temperatures comes to pass, and we haven't taken the greater
issue of global climate change seriously, we won't be happy
primates living happy lives in happy rain forests. We'll be
unhappy primates, scrambling to get enough to live on, and
fighting off those who would take our stuff.

I hope that everyone (everyone sane, at least) can agree that
preparing for climate change (which could have saved the Maya) is
a Good Thing, no matter which direction the change or whether AGW
does or does not take place.

A personal (well, familial) note: my grandparents on my mom's
side went west to the plains of Montana in the early 20th
century. In fact, my mom and an aunt and uncle were born there.
They went to farm the high prairie, which at that time was
experiencing uncommonly wet years. There was even a term for it:
"The Rains Follow the Rails". Railroad owners and other land
speculators and western state boosters used this slogan to lure
many folks west. It even seemed to be true, since the expansion
of the railroads seemed to coincide with wetter weather.

But it was illusory, based only on a short-term change in weather
patterns.

When the rains failed, my family had to move back to Wisconsin.
As did many thousands of others. I know, at second hand, what a
change in weather patterns can do.

But a large-scale change in climate would leave precious few such
Wisconsins for hungry folks to fall back on; and the current
incumbents of those 'Wisconsins' might have a thing or three to
say about pushy incomers. Plus, most of us have guns.

Folks as want a pretty outcome to climate change might want to
ponder all of this. I know I do.

--
Tom


When Tyrants tremble, sick with fear,
And hear their death-knell ringing;
When friends rejoice, both far and near,
How can I keep from singing.

On Feb 28, 2:37 am, "
wrote:
On Feb 27, 2:26 pm, JohnM wrote:



On Feb 27, 8:41 pm, "
wrote:

On 2/27/09 1:05 PM, in article , "marcodbeast"

wrote:
David wrote:
Accuweather
http://global-warming.accuweather.co...told_that_incr...
1.html

"Princeton University physicist Dr. William
Happer told a congressional committee
hearing on Wednesday that global warming
fears are 'mistaken' and that the earth is
currently in a 'CO2 famine now' when you
look at carbon dioxide (CO2) levels through
geological time."

David Christainsen - Meteorologist

Luckily, humanity did not exist then.

** When it comes to science The beast doesn't
know its ass from 3rd base

Aha. A creationist whose science consists of *knowing* the earth is
only ca. 6,500 years old and that the first 5 days of that had no
humans around.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Aha, an AGW fanatic who doesn't realize that there have been large
fluctuations in climate over the aeons, and that warm blooded, air
breathing creatures existed in those warmer climates. Leonard is
right- marcodobeast is nuts for thinking humans would have a difficult
time in a warmer, more CO2 rich invironment- A. McIntire

9 billion humans, which is the projected population when AGW begins to
really bite around 2050 C.E., may not fit into the habitable areas
very readily and could experience difficulty producing food. Soylent
Green a la Charlton Heston begins to look good.

By the time we reach 1,000ppm CO2, in about 2400 C.E. at current rates
of increase, the rump of humanity may only be able to exist
comfortably at the poles, where there is a limited supply of terrain
that may not be too productive. And by then they will have consumed
all the Soylent Green made out of those who went before them.

On 2/27/09 7:24 PM, in article ,
"T. Keating" wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 09:51:46 -0800 (PST), David
wrote:

Accuweather
http://global-warming.accuweather.co...t_increase_in_
1.html

"Princeton University physicist Dr. William
Happer told a congressional committee
hearing on Wednesday that global warming
fears are 'mistaken' ...

Ah... yes.. Where have I hear that name before??

William Happer is chairman of the board of directors at the George C.
Marshall Institute... (Funded by Oil co's to stall effort's to correct
AGW. )

** Since AGW does not exist--
AGW Alarmism a criminal fraud, so why
would any oil company worry about
correct(ing) AGW?

** In 5 years IPCC, Algore, Hansen, Chu et al
will be out of business and IN disgrace

"The Truth About Denial"
presented by Naomi Oreskes, Ph.D. Professor of history..

** Ho Ho Ho ~~ an history teacher writing about
science of which she has no clue.

It presents a short but concise history of the known global warming
science

** No such "science" exists

and the current crop of GW deniers,

** It is sceptics, you stupid jackass. You are
trying to relate scientific sceptics who are
demanding the global warming proponents
provide peer reviewed proofs of their
proposals, to those nazi sympathisers who
would DENY the Holocaust. So far neither
IPCC nor anybody else has has provided
such proofs.


** In real science the burden of proof is always
on the proposer, never on the sceptics.


Note: Accurate projections of GW warming date back to the 1950's
and earlier.

** How can you call them accurate projections
when the results don't match?. It took a phoney
graph (the debunked "hockey stick") to make
them seem to match, but then the real climate
wiped out the results.

It took more than 100 years to gain 0.8
degrees C, It only took 10 years to drop 2
degrees Celsius. James Hansen is hysterically
cooking the books and outrageously making
wilder and wilder claims because his
reputation has sunk right down the sewer.


Those projections (and subsequent confirming
observations) are what prompted the creation of the IPCC in 1988.

** Now it is time to disband the IPCC.

- -
** The evidence from Mars destroys the notion
that humans are responsible for warming
Earth. Mars has global warming, but without
a greenhouse and without the participation of
Martians.

Dr Habibullo Abdussamatov

marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/odyssey/newsroom/pressreleases/20031208a.html

On 2/27/09 7:32 PM, in article , "Tom
McDonald" wrote:

\frac{1}{R}\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}} wrote:
David wrote:
Accuweather
http://global-warming.accuweather.co...at_increase_in
_1.html

"Princeton University physicist Dr. William
Happer told a congressional committee
hearing on Wednesday that global warming
fears are 'mistaken' and that the earth is
currently in a 'CO2 famine now' when you
look at carbon dioxide (CO2) levels through
geological time."

David Christainsen - Meteorologist

Will Happer --- ROFL!!

** Another "fric frac" idiocy

You have to love a guy who holds the Cyrus *Fogg* Brackett chair
in Physics when he tells us that "most of the greenhouse effect
for the earth is due to water vapor and clouds"!

** Since 97.5 % of the GHG is just that H2O,
what else would you expect, Tommy child?

** current GHG H2O = 12,387 ppm
CO2 = 385 ppm
Anthropogenic content CO2 = 13 ppm
Methane = 1.745 ppb
Nitrous oxide = 3.14 ppb



And, of course, the halcyon days of 80,000,000 years ago he goes
on about occurred when the continents were in radically different
positions than they are now, and the early primates lived in very
limited parts of the Earth.

** Whatta clown!!!! 800 climate cycles

Even ca. 30,000,000 ya, when the CO2 level was probably high
enough for even Happer to be satiated, and the mean temperature
was toasty, our ancestors were still limited to specific
habitats, from which they didn't do much moving.

** 300 cycles only 3,600,000 interglacial years
when the CO2 was below 300 ppm

Not all that long ago, a big chunk of Maya civilization crashed
due to long droughts caused by changes in atmospheric and oceanic
temperatures. Translating that to today, when there is next to no
margin for such major crashes in the food supply, and next to
no space for folks living in low-lying areas like Bangladesh to
move uphill ahead of sea level rise, and Hot Happy Happer's
hilarity falls flat.

** Meanwhile you are falling flat on your stupid face.

I downloaded and read his written testimony before Boxer's
committee. He's a dab hand at propaganda, but he does not seem to
have a good grasp of the archaeological, geological or historical
realities that are affected by global warming.

** Why should he deal with something that will
not likely reappear until 92,010 AD?

** You post is long on smart ass comedy and
absent facts. Time for you to grow up.

** As for that dreaded greenhouse gas, CO2,
atmospheric levels of which now exceed 380
parts per million (ppm), it is important to note that
paleological records show that every time CO2
levels have exceeded 300 ppm there has been
an ice age. Every time ‹ without exception.

The same records show that there have been a
series of ice ages over the past 5 million years,
naturally occurring every 100,000 years, with
about 90,000 years of glaciation followed by
about 12,000 years of interglacial climate.

The last ice age ended about 12,000 years
ago. Clearly we are in line for the next period of
glaciation.

- -
** The evidence from Mars destroys the notion
that humans are responsible for warming
Earth. Mars has global warming, but without
a greenhouse and without the participation of
Martians.

Dr Habibullo Abdussamatov

marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/odyssey/newsroom/pressreleases/20031208a.html

On 2/27/09 8:37 PM, in article
,
" wrote:
On Feb 27, 2:26*pm, JohnM wrote:
On Feb 27, 8:41 pm, "
wrote:
On 2/27/09 1:05 PM, in article , "marcodbeast"
wrote:
David wrote:
Accuweather
http://global-warming.accuweather.co...told_that_incr...

"Princeton University physicist Dr. William
Happer told a congressional committee
hearing on Wednesday that global warming
fears are 'mistaken' and that the earth is
currently in a 'CO2 famine now' when you
look at carbon dioxide (CO2) levels through
geological time."

David Christainsen - Meteorologist

* Luckily, humanity did not exist then.

** When it comes to science The beast doesn't
* * *know its ass from 3rd base

Aha. A creationist whose science consists of *knowing* the earth is
only ca. 6,500 years old and that the first 5 days of that had no
humans around.

Aha, an AGW Alarmist fanatic who doesn't realize that there have been large
fluctuations in climate over the aeons, and that warm blooded, air
breathing creatures existed in those warmer climates. Leonard is
right- marcodobeast is nuts for thinking humans would have a difficult
time in a warmer, more CO2 rich invironment- A. McIntire

** There is one problem with that Mac, more CO2 = cooler


As for that dreaded greenhouse gas, CO2,
atmospheric levels of which now exceed 375
parts per million (ppm), it is important to note that
paleological records show that every time CO2
levels have exceeded 300 ppm there has been
an ice age. Every time ‹ without exception.

The same records show that there have been a
series of ice ages over the past 5 million years,
naturally occurring every 100,000 years, with
about 90,000 years of glaciation followed by
about 12,000 years of interglacial climate.

The last ice age ended about 12,000 years
ago. Clearly we are in line for the next period of
glaciation.

On 2/27/09 9:20 PM, in article , "Tom
McDonald" wrote:

wrote:
On Feb 27, 2:26 pm, JohnM wrote:
On Feb 27, 8:41 pm, "
wrote:





On 2/27/09 1:05 PM, in article , "marcodbeast"
wrote:
David wrote:
Accuweather
http://global-warming.accuweather.co...told_that_incr...
1.html
"Princeton University physicist Dr. William
Happer told a congressional committee
hearing on Wednesday that global warming
fears are 'mistaken' and that the earth is
currently in a 'CO2 famine now' when you
look at carbon dioxide (CO2) levels through
geological time."
David Christainsen - Meteorologist
Luckily, humanity did not exist then.
** When it comes to science The beast doesn't
know its ass from 3rd base
Aha. A creationist whose science consists of *knowing* the earth is
only ca. 6,500 years old and that the first 5 days of that had no
humans around.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Aha, an AGW fanatic who doesn't realize that there have been large
fluctuations in climate over the aeons, and that warm blooded, air
breathing creatures existed in those warmer climates. Leonard is
right- marcodobeast is nuts for thinking humans would have a difficult
time in a warmer, more CO2 rich invironment- A. McIntire

You are absolutely right. For values of human populations of
millions.

You are wrong for values of human populations of 6 billion and more.

Unless, of course, you are fine with the sort of population
crashes that undid the Maya Classic civilization.

Are you willing to be one of the ones who have to die in order
that the rest live?

** McDonald is way out in left field without a first clue.


** As for that dreaded greenhouse gas, CO2,
atmospheric levels of which now exceed 400
parts per million (ppm), it is important to note that
paleological records show that every time CO2
levels have exceeded 300 ppm there has been
an ice age. Every time ‹ without exception.

The same records show that there have been a
series of ice ages over the past 5 million years,
naturally occurring every 100,000 years, with
about 90,000 years of glaciation followed by
about 12,000 years of interglacial climate.

The last ice age ended about 12,000 years
ago. Clearly we are in line for the next period of
glaciation.

wrote:
On 2/27/09 8:37 PM, in article
,
" wrote:
On Feb 27, 2:26 pm, JohnM wrote:
On Feb 27, 8:41 pm, "
wrote:
On 2/27/09 1:05 PM, in article , "marcodbeast"
wrote:
David wrote:
Accuweather
http://global-warming.accuweather.co...told_that_incr...
"Princeton University physicist Dr. William
Happer told a congressional committee
hearing on Wednesday that global warming
fears are 'mistaken' and that the earth is
currently in a 'CO2 famine now' when you
look at carbon dioxide (CO2) levels through
geological time."
David Christainsen - Meteorologist
Luckily, humanity did not exist then.
** When it comes to science The beast doesn't
know its ass from 3rd base
Aha. A creationist whose science consists of *knowing* the earth is
only ca. 6,500 years old and that the first 5 days of that had no
humans around.
Aha, an AGW Alarmist fanatic who doesn't realize that there have been large
fluctuations in climate over the aeons, and that warm blooded, air
breathing creatures existed in those warmer climates. Leonard is
right- marcodobeast is nuts for thinking humans would have a difficult
time in a warmer, more CO2 rich invironment- A. McIntire

** There is one problem with that Mac, more CO2 = cooler

Insane Lie



As for that dreaded greenhouse gas, CO2,
atmospheric levels of which now exceed 375
parts per million (ppm), it is important to note that
paleological records show that every time CO2
levels have exceeded 300 ppm there has been
an ice age. Every time ‹ without exception.

The same records show that there have been a
series of ice ages over the past 5 million years,
naturally occurring every 100,000 years, with
about 90,000 years of glaciation followed by
about 12,000 years of interglacial climate.

The last ice age ended about 12,000 years
ago. Clearly we are in line for the next period of
glaciation.



--
CO2 at 390 ppm and counting, put a tiger in your tank -- ESSO commercial

On Feb 27, 9:51*am, David wrote:
Accuweatherhttp://global-warming.accuweather.com/2009/02/congress_told_that_incr...

"Princeton University physicist Dr. William
Happer told a congressional committee
hearing on Wednesday that global warming
fears are 'mistaken' and that the earth is
currently in a 'CO2 famine now' when you
look at carbon dioxide (CO2) levels through
geological time."

David Christainsen - Meteorologist

That idiot fool Bill Happer doesn't realize that the sun is slowly
growing warmer and that has been happening since its fire kicked in.
CO2 needs to slowly go down as the sun slowly heats up. Eventually
we will be fried

wrote:


On 2/27/09 9:20 PM, in article , "Tom
McDonald" wrote:

wrote:
On Feb 27, 2:26 pm, JohnM wrote:
On Feb 27, 8:41 pm, "
wrote:





On 2/27/09 1:05 PM, in article , "marcodbeast"
wrote:
David wrote:
Accuweather
http://global-warming.accuweather.co...told_that_incr...
1.html
"Princeton University physicist Dr. William
Happer told a congressional committee
hearing on Wednesday that global warming
fears are 'mistaken' and that the earth is
currently in a 'CO2 famine now' when you
look at carbon dioxide (CO2) levels through
geological time."
David Christainsen - Meteorologist
Luckily, humanity did not exist then.
** When it comes to science The beast doesn't
know its ass from 3rd base
Aha. A creationist whose science consists of *knowing* the earth is
only ca. 6,500 years old and that the first 5 days of that had no
humans around.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Aha, an AGW fanatic who doesn't realize that there have been large
fluctuations in climate over the aeons, and that warm blooded, air
breathing creatures existed in those warmer climates. Leonard is
right- marcodobeast is nuts for thinking humans would have a difficult
time in a warmer, more CO2 rich invironment- A. McIntire
You are absolutely right. For values of human populations of
millions.

You are wrong for values of human populations of 6 billion and more.

Unless, of course, you are fine with the sort of population
crashes that undid the Maya Classic civilization.

Are you willing to be one of the ones who have to die in order
that the rest live?

** McDonald is way out in left field without a first clue.

Naw. I was never good enough for left field. I always played
right field.

But if you read my other posts, you might think I had some clues,
at least about the effects of climate change on people.

** As for that dreaded greenhouse gas, CO2,
atmospheric levels of which now exceed 400
parts per million (ppm), it is important to note that
paleological records show that every time CO2
levels have exceeded 300 ppm there has been
an ice age. Every time ‹ without exception.

Do you have a citation for this?

While you're looking for that citation, look up the Oligocene
climate optimum.

You're welcome.


The same records show that there have been a
series of ice ages over the past 5 million years,
naturally occurring every 100,000 years, with
about 90,000 years of glaciation followed by
about 12,000 years of interglacial climate.

The last ice age ended about 12,000 years
ago. Clearly we are in line for the next period of
glaciation.

Maybe, maybe not. Are you telling me that the current increase in
CO2 is an indicator of impending continental glaciation?

I really want to see that citation for 300 ppm CO2 preceding
every ice advance. Please.

--
Tom

When Tyrants tremble, sick with fear,
And hear their death-knell ringing;
When friends rejoice, both far and near,
How can I keep from singing.

On Feb 28, 8:33*am, wrote:
On Feb 28, 2:37 am, "
wrote:



On Feb 27, 2:26 pm, JohnM wrote:

On Feb 27, 8:41 pm, "
wrote:

On 2/27/09 1:05 PM, in article , "marcodbeast"

wrote:
David wrote:
Accuweather
http://global-warming.accuweather.co...told_that_incr...
1.html

"Princeton University physicist Dr. William
Happer told a congressional committee
hearing on Wednesday that global warming
fears are 'mistaken' and that the earth is
currently in a 'CO2 famine now' when you
look at carbon dioxide (CO2) levels through
geological time."

David Christainsen - Meteorologist

* Luckily, humanity did not exist then.

** When it comes to science The beast doesn't
* * *know its ass from 3rd base

Aha. A creationist whose science consists of *knowing* the earth is
only ca. 6,500 years old and that the first 5 days of that had no
humans around.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

* Aha, an AGW fanatic who doesn't realize that there have been large
fluctuations in climate over the aeons, and that warm blooded, air
breathing creatures *existed in those warmer climates. *Leonard is
right- marcodobeast is nuts for thinking humans would have a difficult
time in a warmer, more CO2 rich invironment- A. McIntire

9 billion humans, which is the projected population when AGW begins to
really bite around 2050 C.E., may not fit into the habitable areas
very readily and could experience difficulty producing food. Soylent
Green a la Charlton Heston begins to look good.

By the time we reach 1,000ppm CO2, in about 2400 C.E. at current rates
of increase, the rump of humanity may only be able to exist
comfortably at the poles, where there is a limited supply of terrain
that may not be too productive. And by then they will have consumed
all the Soylent Green made out of those who went before them.

Let's see, the effects of CO2 are supposed to be rougly logarithmic,
with a doubling resulting in a 1C increase in temperature. 1000/380
= 2.63, implying a temperature increase of roughly 1.4C, hardly
catastrophic. I'll bet only a few AGW crazies would die off with a
1.4 C increase- call it survival of the fittest- shades of Herbert
Spencer !- A. McIntire