On Tuesday, May 24, 2016 at 11:29:03 AM UTC-4, Alastair wrote:
On Tuesday, May 24, 2016 at 11:57:50 AM UTC+1, Lawrence Jenkins wrote:
On Monday, 23 May 2016 22:05:30 UTC+1, Sir Jim Cannon wrote:
The Brittish naturists health has really suffered suince he came out against the global warming frausdters 3 years ago. Lets HOPE hes made of sterner stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuYEJTtbG94

I've looked and can find no reference anywhere to Bellamy's health. He does have a website which is co-run by him and Dr jack Barrett

Jack Barrett is a PhD, not a medical doctor. He was the author of an early sceptic paper which is essentially correct!

Barrett (1995) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...4853994E0110Va

Both Sir John Houghton and Keith P. Shine replied but their objections were mainly appeals to authority. More correspondence followed which the editor finally ended siding with Barrett. It was the editor's opinion which stopped me rejecting the paper out of hand, as Houghton and Shine had done.

Of course, that paper is not the whole story because CO2 is causing global warming, but it does show that the computer models are fatally flawed.

Cheers, Alastair.

========

Your link does not work, I'm afraid.

Which are the authorities to whom Houghton and Shine appeal? Are they fallacious appeals?

What do you mean by the word "fatally"?

Thanks,

Stephen.

On Tuesday, May 24, 2016 at 4:41:12 PM UTC+1, Stephen Davenport wrote:
On Tuesday, May 24, 2016 at 11:29:03 AM UTC-4, Alastair wrote:
On Tuesday, May 24, 2016 at 11:57:50 AM UTC+1, Lawrence Jenkins wrote:
On Monday, 23 May 2016 22:05:30 UTC+1, Sir Jim Cannon wrote:
The Brittish naturists health has really suffered suince he came out against the global warming frausdters 3 years ago. Lets HOPE hes made of sterner stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuYEJTtbG94

I've looked and can find no reference anywhere to Bellamy's health. He does have a website which is co-run by him and Dr jack Barrett

Jack Barrett is a PhD, not a medical doctor. He was the author of an early sceptic paper which is essentially correct!

Barrett (1995) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...4853994E0110Va

Both Sir John Houghton and Keith P. Shine replied but their objections were mainly appeals to authority. More correspondence followed which the editor finally ended siding with Barrett. It was the editor's opinion which stopped me rejecting the paper out of hand, as Houghton and Shine had done.

Of course, that paper is not the whole story because CO2 is causing global warming, but it does show that the computer models are fatally flawed.

Cheers, Alastair.

========

Your link does not work, I'm afraid.

Which are the authorities to whom Houghton and Shine appeal? Are they fallacious appeals?

What do you mean by the word "fatally"?

Thanks,

Stephen.

Here are the references to the complete story:
Barrett, J. ‘The Roles of Carbon Dioxide and Water Vapour in Warming and Cooling the Earth’s Troposphere’. Spectrochimica Acta Part A: Molecular Spectroscopy 51, no. 3 (1995): 415–417.

Houghton, John. ‘Comment on “The Roles of Carbon Dioxide and Water Vapour in Warming and Cooling the Earth�s Troposphere’ J. Barrett, Spectrochim. Acta Part A, 51 (3) (1995) 415’. Spectrochimica Acta Part A: Molecular and Biomolecular Spectroscopy 51, no. 8 (July 1995): 1391–92. doi:10.1016/0584-8539(95)01485-3.

Shine, Keith P. ‘Comment on “The Roles of Carbon Dioxide and Water Vapour in Warming and Cooling the Earth�s Troposphere’ J. Barrett, Spectrochim. Acta Part A, 51 (3) (1995) 415’. Spectrochimica Acta Part A: Molecular and Biomolecular Spectroscopy 51, no. 8 (July 1995): 1393–94. doi:10.1016/0584-8539(95)01486-1.

Barrett, Jack. ‘Reply to Comments by Sir John Houghton and Keith P. Shine on “The Roles of Carbon Dioxide and Water Vapour in Warming and Cooling the Earth�s Troposphere’ J. Barrett, Spectrochim. Acta Part A, 51 (3) (1995) 415’. Spectrochimica Acta Part A: Molecular and Biomolecular Spectroscopy 51, no. 8 (July 1995): 1395. doi:10.1016/0584-8539(95)01487-X.

Braterman, P. ‘The Role of Carbon Dioxide and Water Vapour in Climate: An Unnecessary Controversy’. Spectrochimica Acta Part A: Molecular Spectroscopy 52 (1996): 1565–1566.

Barrett, Jack. ‘Reply to Comment on “The Role of Carbon Dioxide and Water Vapour in Climate�’. Spectrochimica Acta Part A: Molecular and Biomolecular Spectroscopy 52, no. 11 (October 1996): 1567–68. doi:10.1016/0584-8539(96)01729-1.

Courtney, R. ‘The Role of Carbon Dioxide and Water Vapour in Climate’. Spectrochimica Acta Part A: Molecular Spectroscopy 53 (1997): 1601–1602.

‘Editor’s Reply’. Spectrochimica Acta Part A: Molecular and Biomolecular Spectroscopy 53, no. 10 (September 1997): 1603. doi:10.1016/S1386-1425(97)00115-7.

It is a while since I read these papers so my summary above was a bit crude, But Houghton's third paragraph is an appeal to the authority of the text books without answering Barrett's objections. Keith Shine appeals to LTE to explain everything, but does not explain what it is. In fact it describes the flow of radiation in the Sun, where the heat generated at the centre has to get out. On planets there is no net heat being generated at the base of the atmosphere, so there no net flow of heat from the base to the top of the atmosphere to balance the incoming radiation. [but that is not obvious.]

The models are fatally flawed because the radiation emitted by the surface is totally absorbed near the surface (in the boundary layer) as Barrett points out. So increasing CO2 does not affect the radiation out to space. The idea the the emission height of the radiation to space changes only makes sense if you believe that the surface temperature does affect the outgoing long wave radiation.

Note Shine argues that they don't use blackbody radiation theory. They use Planck's function. But that is the blackbody function B(T).

You can see similar arguments on my poster http://presentations.copernicus.org/...esentation.pdf

Cheers, Alastair.

On Tuesday, 24 May 2016 16:32:13 UTC+1, Desperate Dan wrote:
Please define a "leftie".

Dan . I guess you are asking me as you've left no quote

Yes the term leftie. Well I'm talking specifically about the European, Canadian and USA variety But of the top of my head here are my observations

1) the bulk of them are white

2)And that bulk is primarily middle class but not your daily Mail reading lower middle class no, oh no, but your aspiring to intellectualism which to them is synonymous with intelligence

3) they all went to Uni or Polytechnics with the latter having a chip on their shoulder

4) They are atheist and despise Christianity but have a lot of time and understanding of Islam

6) they are all burdened with guilt based on the dominance of the West over the rest especially what we called the 'third world' but are not allowed to use anymore and now must say 'developing world' as if there are nations of photographers out there.

7)They are also marked by a keen sense of grievance against what they seem to prefix with nearly everything, 'Big' Big oil, big bankers etc.

8) They despise capital punishment as a barbarity and then seek with a passion to reform prison as it makes them feel so bad for the human rights of the murderer being punished. yet with equal passion they believe it a woman's right to have a quick shag ignoring the mountains of contraceptives out there, get pregnant and then kill the foetus , especially as they need to attend an anti fox hunting rally. Awww those cutesy butesy little foxes have a inalienable right to life you know.


9) They love planet earth and nature and feel they have the monopoly on that and if you don't agree with them you obviously want to destroy our environment


10) Back to Atheism: They do not believe in a god but really feel the impulse to worship something, so the pray to Gaia and the environment and her bid to defeat Lucifer , you know back to 'big' oil and capitalism.

11) Strange idiosyncrasy's are a morbid hatred of net curtains, light green and grey street doors and desire to eat in a greasy spoon café every couple of months to show their solidarity with the working classes. They detest large screen TV's and if possible they watch old portable black (can I say that without being called by someone here a racist) and with tiny screens.

They pioneered three wheel prams and campaign to get their local roads closed to traffic to make it safer for their children and then take their kids/babies out on the most dangerous contraptions you could wish to see attached to their bicycles, as they demand that they and their babies to share the roads with juggernauts, van and all sorts of life threatening vehicles and modes of transport.

There are some more but I'd rather leave that for the extreme left .

Dan . I guess you are asking me as you've left no quote

You've, at last, written something that made me laugh! You should do stand up with that script but you need a name. The Pub Landlord's taken so ..................

On Wednesday, 25 May 2016 09:49:04 UTC+1, Desperate Dan wrote:
Dan . I guess you are asking me as you've left no quote

You've, at last, written something that made me laugh! You should do stand up with that script but you need a name. The Pub Landlord's taken so ...................

I do try and entertain. Then again I was married into the mob.........the lefty nostra middle-classes. I'm from working class stock which you can tell by my level of education and my beloved late sister was this new breed of indigenous layabout which has now formed a new layer in society since the advent of the welfare state called the non working classes. With the non-working classes you get usually the birth mother who smokes, drinks and swears like a trooper she has several kids by several absent dads as this keeps the not being able to work IS and JSA going.

However I would like to take this opportunity to mention 'Food Banks'.

Now for some time we keep hearing how poor Britain is and how food banks are now part of every day life in order to survive. Its the sort of topic that the Guardian and BBC find perpetual motion with-it its the anti-capitalist gift that keeps giving.

Well I my experience with my own family and all the people they knew, exactly what was going on first hand. I also have some knowledge of the benefits system and although without DLA/PIP you don't get a lot personally its the housing benefit that's the killer in terms of costs. Tens of thousands per home especially in Greater London- so lets be fair the so-called material poverty in this country can't be that bad when you consider the cost of housing, education and health all these are provided whether you want to pay a penny or not.

So back to food banks as I believe Jim Cannon's brother Jeremy likes to mention them to shame Cameron. The first thing that struck me was that all the health advisory committees keep telling us we are an morbidly obese nation especially the poorest in our nation with their poor diet yet here we are at the same time saying we have millions of starving people who rely on food banks to survive. So I wondered just what were these food banks like I had a look around and saw there was one in Upper Norwood St Lukes Church
https://norwoodbrixton.foodbank.org.uk/


So two Fridays ago I went along just to see how the tattooed and pierced hordes of the starving lower classes would queue in their thousands to get enough calories to help survive the next foodbank day which was Tuesday.

Anyhow it was open 10am to 2pm, so I got there at around ten and saw no one then two people came out of the church with two small bags (I have photos if anyone is interested) and staggered to the small open gardens at the front of the church and proceeded to start drinking tenants extra and chain smoking wirth both already as my mother would say 'as ****ed as puddings'.

I waited fifteen minutes and then an obviously looking African couple turned up with a trolley bag and went into the food collection centre, then a very smartly dressed I guess eastern European couple with a pram entered .

Then after another twenty minutes the local cross dressing transvestite turned up, bewigged, over six feet tall in his sixties wearing a see through top with false tits underneath in a mini skirt (again I have the photo) I had to laugh as he/she went to enter the building s/he decided to cover up the false boobs s/he was wearing as they actually had nipples for all to see.

Finally two more individuals entered within a two hour period an obese white bloke and an obese afro Caribbean about the same age late thirties.

Now there were two very smart what I thought to be Spanish girls hovering about and seemed to be with the staff, they actually looked liked students around late teens to early twenties. Well blow me if they didn't struggle out with about six carrier bags filled with food (again I have photos) They made there way down to the high street so I decided to follow them.

They stopped as they waited for a bus so I thought sod it who are these very well dressed girls and why do they qualify for food hand outs. So I approached them and asked who they were and how come the food bank had given them food. "Sorry I don't understand we are from Peru". Bloody Peru are there foods banks on the plains of Nazca Erik Von Danikin missed a trick there I thought..

It was obvious they were nervous so I decided to leave it and went back to St Lukes. I entered the church food centre and there appeared to be more staff than anything. I asked the very well spoken English looking woman who was in her sixties how did one qualify for bags of food. You need a written letter/voucher from you GP or organisation, she said. I then asked why the two student/tourist from Peru qualified for all the food they were carrying, she didn't answer but her colleague narked "all visitors to the UK qualify ".

At that point I left feeling smugly vindicated that the food banks of GB were an absolute farce at best and a down right political scoring point lie at worst. Now I've given you the link go and see for yourselves. Granted it was just one food bank but in two hours (half its opening time) I saw just half a dozen people go in overweight, foreign and plain freaky. Hardly sounds like the under siege, needing all the help they can get food bank propaganda, we hear about all the time from certain quarters.

"Alastair" wrote:

....
The models are fatally flawed because the radiation emitted
by the surface is totally absorbed near the surface (in the
boundary layer) as Barrett points out. So increasing CO2 does
not affect the radiation out to space.

I think the idea is that increasing CO2 reduces the IR radiation to space
from the atmosphere, and that then increases the heat content of the entire
climate system. I don't know how many atmospheric layers a climate model
typically has, but the effect has to percolate downwards to the surface, and
that's how the models reproduce the global warming effect of increasing
atmospheric CO2.

On Tuesday, 24 May 2016 21:33:10 UTC+1, Lawrence Jenkins wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 May 2016 16:32:13 UTC+1, Desperate Dan wrote:
Please define a "leftie".

Dan . I guess you are asking me as you've left no quote

Yes the term leftie. Well I'm talking specifically about the European, Canadian and USA variety But of the top of my head here are my observations

1) the bulk of them are white

2)And that bulk is primarily middle class but not your daily Mail reading lower middle class no, oh no, but your aspiring to intellectualism which to them is synonymous with intelligence

3) they all went to Uni or Polytechnics with the latter having a chip on their shoulder

4) They are atheist and despise Christianity but have a lot of time and understanding of Islam

6) they are all burdened with guilt based on the dominance of the West over the rest especially what we called the 'third world' but are not allowed to use anymore and now must say 'developing world' as if there are nations of photographers out there.

7)They are also marked by a keen sense of grievance against what they seem to prefix with nearly everything, 'Big' Big oil, big bankers etc.

8) They despise capital punishment as a barbarity and then seek with a passion to reform prison as it makes them feel so bad for the human rights of the murderer being punished. yet with equal passion they believe it a woman's right to have a quick shag ignoring the mountains of contraceptives out there, get pregnant and then kill the foetus , especially as they need to attend an anti fox hunting rally. Awww those cutesy butesy little foxes have a inalienable right to life you know.


9) They love planet earth and nature and feel they have the monopoly on that and if you don't agree with them you obviously want to destroy our environment


10) Back to Atheism: They do not believe in a god but really feel the impulse to worship something, so the pray to Gaia and the environment and her bid to defeat Lucifer , you know back to 'big' oil and capitalism.

11) Strange idiosyncrasy's are a morbid hatred of net curtains, light green and grey street doors and desire to eat in a greasy spoon café every couple of months to show their solidarity with the working classes. They detest large screen TV's and if possible they watch old portable black (can I say that without being called by someone here a racist) and with tiny screens.

They pioneered three wheel prams and campaign to get their local roads closed to traffic to make it safer for their children and then take their kids/babies out on the most dangerous contraptions you could wish to see attached to their bicycles, as they demand that they and their babies to share the roads with juggernauts, van and all sorts of life threatening vehicles and modes of transport.

There are some more but I'd rather leave that for the extreme left .

All those hideous left wing socialist countries like Norway and Denmark. Who would ever want to live there?

You'd probably like this video, Larry. Perhaps you should move to the American Mid-West. Right-wing politics and tornado chasing!

https://youtube.com/watch?v=PAHgGsrdXyM

MR

The idea that the establishment might poison David Bellamy is so
ridiculously paranoid, that anyone who seriously believes it should
probably be seeking the help of a psychiatrist. Bellamy is 83, so if his
health is declining then at his age - though sad - it's hardly remarkable.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interestingly, it has been shown by some recent research that people who
believe in conspiracy theories tend to be dissatisfied with their own
lives and generally feel insecure.
The World seems to be anti-fact and anti-expert these days for reasons I
can't comprehend. I can almost understand frustration with "experts" but
to seek the views of idiots as an alternative is worrying!
Dave

On 24/05/2016 21:33, Lawrence Jenkins wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 May 2016 16:32:13 UTC+1, Desperate Dan wrote:
Please define a "leftie".

Dan . I guess you are asking me as you've left no quote

Yes the term leftie. Well I'm talking specifically about the European, Canadian and USA variety But of the top of my head here are my observations

1) the bulk of them are white

2)And that bulk is primarily middle class but not your daily Mail reading lower middle class no, oh no, but your aspiring to intellectualism which to them is synonymous with intelligence

3) they all went to Uni or Polytechnics with the latter having a chip on their shoulder

4) They are atheist and despise Christianity but have a lot of time and understanding of Islam

6) they are all burdened with guilt based on the dominance of the West over the rest especially what we called the 'third world' but are not allowed to use anymore and now must say 'developing world' as if there are nations of photographers out there.

7)They are also marked by a keen sense of grievance against what they seem to prefix with nearly everything, 'Big' Big oil, big bankers etc.

8) They despise capital punishment as a barbarity and then seek with a passion to reform prison as it makes them feel so bad for the human rights of the murderer being punished. yet with equal passion they believe it a woman's right to have a quick shag ignoring the mountains of contraceptives out there, get pregnant and then kill the foetus , especially as they need to attend an anti fox hunting rally. Awww those cutesy butesy little foxes have a inalienable right to life you know.


9) They love planet earth and nature and feel they have the monopoly on that and if you don't agree with them you obviously want to destroy our environment


10) Back to Atheism: They do not believe in a god but really feel the impulse to worship something, so the pray to Gaia and the environment and her bid to defeat Lucifer , you know back to 'big' oil and capitalism.

11) Strange idiosyncrasy's are a morbid hatred of net curtains, light green and grey street doors and desire to eat in a greasy spoon café every couple of months to show their solidarity with the working classes. They detest large screen TV's and if possible they watch old portable black (can I say that without being called by someone here a racist) and with tiny screens.

They pioneered three wheel prams and campaign to get their local roads closed to traffic to make it safer for their children and then take their kids/babies out on the most dangerous contraptions you could wish to see attached to their bicycles, as they demand that they and their babies to share the roads with juggernauts, van and all sorts of life threatening vehicles and modes of transport.

There are some more but I'd rather leave that for the extreme left .

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then there's the other type:-
1. Brought up on a rough Council Estate.
2. Accidentally clever enough to pass eleven plus when the school you
went to wasn't based on the ability to buy an expensive house in an
expensive area.
3. Mother called a snob for no reason other than son passed 11-plus
4. Still has those same friends who went to secondary school 50 years ago.
5. Played football for local pub teams. Still meet up for boozy reunions.
6. Opted out of going to Uni and took part time further education.
Studied environmental science before the word "green" or "AGW" were
heard of.
7. Dad who believed education was a good thing.
8. Decided at a young age that it was a myth that the working class had
to be so lowly paid and that rich investment bankers would leave the
Country if they paid more tax.
8. Still live in a semi detached on a housing estate in liberal South
Essex with England flags on poles in gardens and UKIP local councillors
(Not really Islington is it?)in an area with a higher murder rate than a
certain South London Borough!
9. Atheist who seems to practise more of what Christians claim to be
about than many of them do! (See Trump, below). Do not care for the
Muslim or other religions either but as with claimed Christians, I
personally know many decent people who hold these faiths.
10. At a young age, via skinheads and the National Front (not to mention
a man who died 5 years before I was born) I found that right wing people
seemed full of hatred and violence and wanted to kill things.(Look at
Trump now) I seemed to like friendship, kindness, tolerance, others
points of view and not killing things. These people seemed to be liberal
or left wing. So I suppose I am one.
I make no apology for that.
Dave

"Dave Cornwell" wrote in message
...

The idea that the establishment might poison David Bellamy is so
ridiculously paranoid, that anyone who seriously believes it should
probably be seeking the help of a psychiatrist. Bellamy is 83, so if his
health is declining then at his age - though sad - it's hardly
remarkable.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interestingly, it has been shown by some recent research that people who
believe in conspiracy theories tend to be dissatisfied with their own
lives and generally feel insecure.
The World seems to be anti-fact and anti-expert these days for reasons I
can't comprehend. I can almost understand frustration with "experts" but
to seek the views of idiots as an alternative is worrying!

Yeah that'll be right put conspiracy theorists in a box. Stay in the Matrix
Dave if you wish, I prefer freedom!
Groupthink anyone?

Will
--
" Some sects believe that the world was created 5000 years ago. Another sect
believes that it was created in 1910 "
http://www.lyneside.demon.co.uk/Hayt...antage_Pro.htm
Will Hand (Haytor, Devon, 1017 feet asl)
---------------------------------------------