Peter Muehlbauer wrote:

Bill Ward wrote:


The TOA LW flux is 230 W/m^2, that's top-of-atmosphere. Now, just for
grins, multiply 300*300*300*300 and then multiply that by 5.67x10^-8 and
you will get a number that is around 400. That would be 400 W/m^2 and
300 would be kelvins, or the temperature of the equatorial ocean, more
or less. So the outgoing *surface* LW flux is 400 W/m^2. The atmosphere
intercepts most of that, I forget exactly, but it's something like 350
W/m^2 on average. Of that 350 W/m^2, half gets radiated back downwards
by the greenhouse gases.

Really the half?
Half would fit at infinite altitude of the radiating molecule.
At the active height of tropopause (10 km or so) you have to keep in mind the
horizon, respectively the tangential visible calotte.
So less than a half really hits the earth.


Less than half _starts_ downward, whether or not and what portion
is absorbed by other molecules on the way down is in question.


This is essentially the gist of why I think the whole premise of
upper atmosphere CO2 playing a big part in warming the surface is too
simplistic.
After dark, and even as the sun goes down, the air cools usually,
and the surface cools. While the surface has greater mass per unit
of volume, far more mass of the air is involved in the thermal and IR
energy transfer.
Fog reduces energy transfer, clouds stop up-down energy transfer
and radiate and absorb broadband.
So the amount of energy reaching the surface from the upper
atmosphere CO2 may be nil, but there is a lot of energy transfer going
on in between the upper atmosphere and the surface.


I am trying to reason out the claimed up-down Infra-Red transfer
with what seems to be zero horizontal IR transfer, with most of the
horizontal energy transfer being thermal and as cold air moving in and
taking the place of warmer air.

Where the warm air goes isn't clear, the cooling can be very
rapid, with very little noticeable IR energy from the upper atmosphere.
Except on exceptionally clear nights, there is little notice
of Infra-Red energy transfer, and then it is seen as dew or frost
forming, which is the radiation to space.