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Old February 13th 10, 11:29 PM posted to uk.sci.weather
Bernard Burton Bernard Burton is offline
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First recorded activity by Weather-Banter: May 2004
Posts: 5,382
Default Presumably there is a warm lower layer of air currently despite low 850 hPa's

Could it be, Dave, that the model data you quote is incorrect? The midday
ascents show 850 mbar temperature in the range -7 (Albermarle) to -9 (De
Bilt). The closest to your model value was Paris (-10), but the surface temp
there is -3.
Another thing, if the lapse rate is equal to the dry adiabat, it indicates a
well mixed layer, not the opposite. You can not have a shallow surface layer
warmed by the underlying sea, with colder air above, and also have an
unmixed layer at the surface. When cold air overlies a warm sea, there is a
flux of heat from the sea to the atmosphere, and this will lead to a well
mixed boundary layer up to where ever the capping inversion is. In today's
instance, using the ascent for Nottingham at midday, there is a dry lapse
rate up to about 950 mbar, then a saturated lapse up to a capping inversion
at 800 mbar, T= -10. The layer surface to 800 mbar presents a well mixed
layer with convection up to 800 mbar.
The GFS vertical charts for Europe (1800z) do not show 850 mbar temps
anywhere near -11 between 49N and 69N on the Greenwich meridian.
http://www.wetter3.de/vertikal.html

Watch for the line wrap!
http://weather.uwyo.edu/cgi-bin/soun...F%3ASKEWT&YEAR
=2010&MONTH=02&FROM=1312&TO=1312&STNM=03354





--
Bernard Burton
Wokingham, Berkshire, UK.

Weather satellite images at:
www.woksat.info/wwp.html

"Dave Cornwell" wrote in message
...
Just when I thought I'd mastered some of the maths involved in the
relationship between things like 850hPa and max temp etc today seems to

have
thrown quite a big spanner in the works. At 2pm temp was 4.6C under full
cloud. There was some light rain about. According to the GFS hires the 850
hPA was -11C at that time for this location. I realise the lower

atmosphere
is a 3D model but this does seem to be a bit extreme with no solar

heating.
I have to presume that the slack NE flow is producing an unmixed layer

very
close to the surface which is then giving a temperature reflective of the
current temperature of the North Sea rather than the air aloft which would
normally be used for a max temp calculation. This would also explain the
colder temperatures further west despite the higher 850 hPa's.

Dave,
S.Essex