On 01/10/2015 08:38, Eskimo Will wrote:

"Stephen Davenport" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 11:52:20 AM UTC-4, xmetman wrote:
On Tuesday, 29 September 2015 16:32:30 UTC+1, Stephen Davenport wrote:
On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 9:14:43 AM UTC-4, xmetman wrote:
This is the fifth sunny dry day in a row in mid-Devon but it's not
an Indian Summer, because according to the BBC Weather presenters
"Indian summers don't occur in September", and I've heard that a
couple of times today on the BBC.


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They would be wrong. It's not dependent on month but rather,
strictly speaking, a fine and warmer period after the first killing
frost. However, it is a term borrowed from North America (New
England, specifically); and perhaps we should return to the notions
of Old Wives' summer, St. Luke's summer and St. Martin's summer -
the latter two of which are date dependent (October and November
respectively).

The AMS glossary summarizes Indian summer thus:

"A period, in mid- or late autumn, of abnormally warm weather,
generally clear skies, sunny but hazy days, and cool nights.

In New England, at least one killing frost and preferably a
substantial period of normally cool weather must precede this warm
spell in order for it to be considered a true "Indian summer." It
does not occur every year, and in some years there may be two or
three Indian summers. The term is most often heard in the
northeastern United States, but its usage extends throughout
English- speaking countries. It dates back at least to 1778, but its
origin is not certain; the most probable suggestions relate it to
the way that the American Indians availed themselves of this extra
opportunity to increase their winter stores.

The comparable period in Europe is termed the Old Wives' summer,
and, poetically, may be referred to as halcyon days. In England,
dependent upon dates of occurrence, such a period may be called St.
Martin's summer, St. Luke's summer, and formerly All-hallown summer."

Stephen

If the prerequisites for an indian summer depended on the first frost
(of any type let alone a sharp one) in the British Isles, then most
years would be inelligible because the first frost is occuring later
sometimes well into December in recent years especially the south.

Bruce.

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Which is why it is an unsatisfactory descriptor for the British Isles
but still a fine one for New England :-)

But the definition has popularly become much looser in the UK.
=====================

I just wish we give up the stupid notion altogether. Old wives summers,
indian summers, ... who cares, it's weather, it doesn't need a label.

Will

Hippy talk nothing needs a label, lets go back to stone age man grunting.

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