The following is an e-mail exchange between myself and James Pate, who
I believe is the Air Traffic Manager at Trenton-Mercer Airport. Its
ridiculous the lengths these guys will go to avoid responsibility for
augmenting the ASOS.

From: "Raymond C. Martin, Jr."
To: James Pate
Subject: Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:12:42 -0800 (PST)

--- James Pate wrote:
Mr. Martin,
Could you please provide me with the date and
times the ASOS wasn't augmented? I will check
with the weather service. Also please note the
ASOS is never augmented during hours when the
tower is closed. Please feel free to contact me
with feedback about this problem 609-882-4422.
Thank you for your concern...Jim Pate Air Traffic
Manager Trenton Tower

Here are the observations from the afternoon of March
8, 2005:

KTTN 081653Z 34022G31KT 1 3/4SM -SN OVC014 M02/M06
A2912 RMK AO2 PK WND 32031/1649 SLP854 P0000
T10221061 $=

KTTN 081753Z 33023G31KT 1/2SM FZFG BKN003 OVC012
M04/M07 A2911 RMK AO2 PK WND 34031/1753 SNEMM
SLP851 P0001 60012 T10441067 10078 21044 50001 $=

KTTN 081853Z 32013G23KT 1SM -SN BKN005 OVC013
M05/M08 A2911 RMK AO2 PK WND 32031/1754 SNB43 SLP851
P0001 T10501078 $=

Note the middle observation is lacking the snow
(only reporting freezing fog) and is missing a snow
end time (SNEMM). It appears that the precipitation
sensor failed, but no correction was issued indicating
the moderate snow falling at the time, per nearby
observations and radar.


--- James Pate wrote:
Good morning Mr. Martin,
I just had to get into work and verify the logs
from March 8th. I was the observer on duty for
the 3 observations you noted. The Freezing fog was
correct. Although there was snow in the area, the
1753Z obscuration to visibility was freezing fog
and not snow. The ASOS takes a snapshot of what
is in the vicinity at the time of the observation.
With 1/2 mile visibility, which was verified by ground
referance points, it could be possible to have snow
on the approach end of RWY 24 and neither the
ASOS or observer would be able to observe it.
Please call me about this at 609-882-4422. Thank
you very much for your feedback...Jim Pate ATM
Trenton FCT

I'm sorry, but you are just plain lying. Are you
really going to tell me that this radar was completely
wrong and no precipitation was falling at the time????
http://www.njfreeways.com/weather/da...0Z-08Mar05.gif
This is a constant problem from KTTN, observations
which are NEVER corrected. You guys do absolutely no
work, in regards to augmentation. I'm gonna be honest
with you, I'm actually a meteorologist from the area
and pay close attention to the KTTN observations all
the time, especialy during snow, and they are NEVER
augmented at all. I've seen so many times when the
precip sensor failed and all that was reported was
freezing fog, when it was clearly snowing moderatley
to heavily.

You make me sick, sir.

=====
Raymond C. Martin, Jr.
Associate Meteorologist, AccuWeather Inc.-
http://www.accuweather.com/
New Jersey Expressways and Tollways - http://www.njfreeways.com/
Ray's Winter Storm Archive - http://www.njfreeways.com/weather/

=====
Raymond C. Martin, Jr.
Associate Meteorologist, AccuWeather Inc.- http://www.accuweather.com/
New Jersey Expressways and Tollways - http://www.njfreeways.com/
Ray's Winter Storm Archive - http://www.njfreeways.com/weather/

On 28 Mar 2005 11:44:14 -0800, wrote:

The following is an e-mail exchange between myself and James Pate, who
I believe is the Air Traffic Manager at Trenton-Mercer Airport. Its
ridiculous the lengths these guys will go to avoid responsibility for
augmenting the ASOS.

From: "Raymond C. Martin, Jr."
To: James Pate
Subject: Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:12:42 -0800 (PST)

--- James Pate wrote:
Mr. Martin,
Could you please provide me with the date and
times the ASOS wasn't augmented? I will check
with the weather service. Also please note the
ASOS is never augmented during hours when the
tower is closed. Please feel free to contact me
with feedback about this problem 609-882-4422.
Thank you for your concern...Jim Pate Air Traffic
Manager Trenton Tower

Here are the observations from the afternoon of March
8, 2005:

KTTN 081653Z 34022G31KT 1 3/4SM -SN OVC014 M02/M06
A2912 RMK AO2 PK WND 32031/1649 SLP854 P0000
T10221061 $=

KTTN 081753Z 33023G31KT 1/2SM FZFG BKN003 OVC012
M04/M07 A2911 RMK AO2 PK WND 34031/1753 SNEMM
SLP851 P0001 60012 T10441067 10078 21044 50001 $=

KTTN 081853Z 32013G23KT 1SM -SN BKN005 OVC013
M05/M08 A2911 RMK AO2 PK WND 32031/1754 SNB43 SLP851
P0001 T10501078 $=

Note the middle observation is lacking the snow
(only reporting freezing fog) and is missing a snow
end time (SNEMM). It appears that the precipitation
sensor failed, but no correction was issued indicating
the moderate snow falling at the time, per nearby
observations and radar.


--- James Pate wrote:
Good morning Mr. Martin,
I just had to get into work and verify the logs
from March 8th. I was the observer on duty for
the 3 observations you noted. The Freezing fog was
correct. Although there was snow in the area, the
1753Z obscuration to visibility was freezing fog
and not snow. The ASOS takes a snapshot of what
is in the vicinity at the time of the observation.
With 1/2 mile visibility, which was verified by ground
referance points, it could be possible to have snow
on the approach end of RWY 24 and neither the
ASOS or observer would be able to observe it.
Please call me about this at 609-882-4422. Thank
you very much for your feedback...Jim Pate ATM
Trenton FCT

I'm sorry, but you are just plain lying. Are you
really going to tell me that this radar was completely
wrong and no precipitation was falling at the time????
http://www.njfreeways.com/weather/da...0Z-08Mar05.gif
This is a constant problem from KTTN, observations
which are NEVER corrected. You guys do absolutely no
work, in regards to augmentation. I'm gonna be honest
with you, I'm actually a meteorologist from the area
and pay close attention to the KTTN observations all
the time, especialy during snow, and they are NEVER
augmented at all. I've seen so many times when the
precip sensor failed and all that was reported was
freezing fog, when it was clearly snowing moderatley
to heavily.

You make me sick, sir.

=====
Raymond C. Martin, Jr.
Associate Meteorologist, AccuWeather Inc.-
http://www.accuweather.com/
New Jersey Expressways and Tollways - http://www.njfreeways.com/
Ray's Winter Storm Archive - http://www.njfreeways.com/weather/

=====
Raymond C. Martin, Jr.
Associate Meteorologist, AccuWeather Inc.- http://www.accuweather.com/
New Jersey Expressways and Tollways - http://www.njfreeways.com/
Ray's Winter Storm Archive - http://www.njfreeways.com/weather/

Raymond: Arguing with James is like running in the Special Olympics.
Even if you win, you're still a retard. Let it go.

- Sandy in Princeton

wrote in news:1112039054.757746.289480
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

The following is an e-mail exchange between myself and James Pate, who
I believe is the Air Traffic Manager at Trenton-Mercer Airport. Its
ridiculous the lengths these guys will go to avoid responsibility for
augmenting the ASOS.

wrote in news:1112039054.757746.289480
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
....
Please call me about this at 609-882-4422. Thank
you very much for your feedback...Jim Pate ATM
Trenton FCT

I'm sorry, but you are just plain lying. Are you...
...

You make me sick, sir.


Raymond,

The fellow took the time to respond to you and even offered that you call
him on the phone. Whether he is right or wrong, place yourself in his
shoes and think real hard about whether he would be willing to continue the
exchange.

It may seem black and white to you, but you will go farther if you accept
that the rest of the world has an unconventional way of looking at these
things, and if nothing else deserves a little respect. You have to be more
accepting.

Seriously, give yourself a chance; you are outnumbered.

Way to stand behind that Accu Weather name Raymond!! Sure the boss
appreciates your dialogue, which actually could have made great strides had
you passed English 15 at Penn State. Unfortunately, Mr. Holier Than Thou
(that's you) comes off with a complete lack of tact, decency, and respect
plus an attitude that befits a foul tempered 14 year old. You honestly got
sick over an unaugmented weather observation? I'm beginning to think you're
achieving kook status! You think you made TTN look bad? Think again. That
dialogue is a total embarassment to none other than yourself. I'm surpried
Mr. Pate gave you the curteous reply that he did! Quite frankly, you deserve
to have sausages shoved down your throat and starving dogs up your butt.

It's unfortunate because you attempted to call attention to a long standing
problem since the FAA took over observations, but the manner in which you
have done so certainly won't win you any friends on either side of the
playing field. Maybe you ought to stick to desk work which doesn't involve
any communication with other human beings, or at least take a few classes in
communications because you really are hurting yourself. Office Space anyone?


wrote in message
oups.com...
The following is an e-mail exchange between myself and James Pate, who
I believe is the Air Traffic Manager at Trenton-Mercer Airport. Its
ridiculous the lengths these guys will go to avoid responsibility for
augmenting the ASOS.

From: "Raymond C. Martin, Jr."
To: James Pate
Subject: Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:12:42 -0800 (PST)

--- James Pate wrote:
Mr. Martin,
Could you please provide me with the date and
times the ASOS wasn't augmented? I will check
with the weather service. Also please note the
ASOS is never augmented during hours when the
tower is closed. Please feel free to contact me
with feedback about this problem 609-882-4422.
Thank you for your concern...Jim Pate Air Traffic
Manager Trenton Tower

Here are the observations from the afternoon of March
8, 2005:

KTTN 081653Z 34022G31KT 1 3/4SM -SN OVC014 M02/M06
A2912 RMK AO2 PK WND 32031/1649 SLP854 P0000
T10221061 $=

KTTN 081753Z 33023G31KT 1/2SM FZFG BKN003 OVC012
M04/M07 A2911 RMK AO2 PK WND 34031/1753 SNEMM
SLP851 P0001 60012 T10441067 10078 21044 50001 $=

KTTN 081853Z 32013G23KT 1SM -SN BKN005 OVC013
M05/M08 A2911 RMK AO2 PK WND 32031/1754 SNB43 SLP851
P0001 T10501078 $=

Note the middle observation is lacking the snow
(only reporting freezing fog) and is missing a snow
end time (SNEMM). It appears that the precipitation
sensor failed, but no correction was issued indicating
the moderate snow falling at the time, per nearby
observations and radar.


--- James Pate wrote:
Good morning Mr. Martin,
I just had to get into work and verify the logs
from March 8th. I was the observer on duty for
the 3 observations you noted. The Freezing fog was
correct. Although there was snow in the area, the
1753Z obscuration to visibility was freezing fog
and not snow. The ASOS takes a snapshot of what
is in the vicinity at the time of the observation.
With 1/2 mile visibility, which was verified by ground
referance points, it could be possible to have snow
on the approach end of RWY 24 and neither the
ASOS or observer would be able to observe it.
Please call me about this at 609-882-4422. Thank
you very much for your feedback...Jim Pate ATM
Trenton FCT

I'm sorry, but you are just plain lying. Are you
really going to tell me that this radar was completely
wrong and no precipitation was falling at the time????
http://www.njfreeways.com/weather/da...0Z-08Mar05.gif
This is a constant problem from KTTN, observations
which are NEVER corrected. You guys do absolutely no
work, in regards to augmentation. I'm gonna be honest
with you, I'm actually a meteorologist from the area
and pay close attention to the KTTN observations all
the time, especialy during snow, and they are NEVER
augmented at all. I've seen so many times when the
precip sensor failed and all that was reported was
freezing fog, when it was clearly snowing moderatley
to heavily.

You make me sick, sir.

=====
Raymond C. Martin, Jr.
Associate Meteorologist, AccuWeather Inc.-
http://www.accuweather.com/
New Jersey Expressways and Tollways - http://www.njfreeways.com/
Ray's Winter Storm Archive - http://www.njfreeways.com/weather/

=====
Raymond C. Martin, Jr.
Associate Meteorologist, AccuWeather Inc.- http://www.accuweather.com/
New Jersey Expressways and Tollways - http://www.njfreeways.com/
Ray's Winter Storm Archive - http://www.njfreeways.com/weather/

MeatyUrologist wrote:
It's unfortunate because you attempted to call attention to a long standing
problem since the FAA took over observations, but the manner in which you
have done so certainly won't win you any friends on either side of the
playing field. Maybe you ought to stick to desk work which doesn't involve
any communication with other human beings, or at least take a few classes in
communications because you really are hurting yourself. Office Space anyone?

Not to mention that it's **** poor to post a personal email exchange,
and even worse to leave the guy's phone number in there. I doubt there
are any good intentions on Raymond's part. He comes off as a obsessive kook.

On 28 Mar 2005 11:44:14 -0800,
, in
.com wrote:

+ I'm sorry, but you are just plain lying.
....
+ You make me sick, sir.

Have you considered writing a chapter for "How to Make Friends and
Influence People"?

James
--
Consulting Minister for Consultants, DNRC
I can please only one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow
isn't looking good, either.
I am BOFH. Resistance is futile. Your network will be assimilated.

Fortunately, I recieved better and more intelligent advice elsewhere...
that figures, of course:

From a NWS employee:
"...I must say, I think Ray's got every right to be angry. The guy's
pretty clearly BS'ing him, he's got evidence to back his claims up. He
may be able to definitively prove repeated negligence by the person (or
people) tasked with augmenting the observation (during a severe weather
event, no less), which makes for a very dangerous situation for
aviation & thus the public in general."

From an FAA employee:
"Lazy? No. You can call air traffic controllers many things, but lazy
is not one of them.

I think this is a battle you are going to lose. In all my travel's I
have yet to see a FAA or NFCT (Non-Federal "Contract" Tower) augment
ASOS as the rules imply. I don't think it is appropriate to single out
KTTN. For example, during a hurricane in Florida last summer a
temperature sensor failed on an ASOS augmented by a control tower.
Because the wind was so strong the precip discrimintator thought that
it was snow and thus it was snowing in central Florida during a
hurricane, or at least that is what the METAR indicated.

The tone I got from your message's indicate to me that you don't
understand what is really going on here. NATCA (the air traffic
controller union) along with other groups including the GAO (General
Accounting Office) petitioned the government many times in the 80s and
early 90s saying that ASOS was unsafe and frequently inaccurate. They
asked the NWS and FAA not to implement the system. They also asked that
the FAA not close down FSS stations (which took manual observations at
many stations) and that the NWS not close down the local WSO offices.

The government implemented ASOS, closed down FSS's and WSO's and gave
controllers the responsibility of augmenting the system.

While most controllers I know are certified weather observers, they
have not been trained properly in observing weather. They really don't
understand how ASOS does what it does nor how to correct it when it is
not representative. Not only that, but they've never been trained to
accurately observe the weather...they've only been trained to take the
written exam.

Some controllers know how to observe weather. However, as some of you
may know, there is a shortage of air traffic controllers and as such
many are overworked and overstressed. Sometimes, they just don't have
time to augment ASOS because they are doing other things.

NATCA and air traffic controllers in general see ASOS as a liability.
Most of them just leave the unit "as is" because either they don't want
to take responsibility for what they see as faulty equipment or they
really don't know how to augment it correctly and take a good
observation.

At larger airports with more commercial air traffic there are contract
weather offices which augment ASOS METAR's. While these stations tend
to augment properly, in my view I still see significant errors in
coding and observing practices at some sites.

Attacking controllers that in most cases do their job (seperating air
traffic) very well, or attacking former/current government policy isn't
going to get you very far. NWS modernization gave observation
responbility to the FAA. I think if you gave the NWS responsibility for
seperating air traffic that would become a disaster as well.

If you really want to pursue this, I would suggest writing to either
the FAA headquarters (Jane Darvey is the head I believe), or the FSDO
(Flight Standards District Office) for Trenton. FSDO's are a branch of
the FAA that deal with certification and safety issues...don't quote me
on this but I believe the FSDO for Trenton is Atlantic City. Becareful
what you say though, you are dealing with the federal gov't...too much
critcism and you get a one way ticket to Gitmo!

I think there is also a program manager for the METAR/contract weather
program...but who it is or where to find him I'm not sure.

Your quest is a noble one, but unfortunately the FAA is just not
interested in observing weather accurately. I work at a Service level A
contract weather office on the East Coast and unfortunately the only
back up equipment we have to ASOS is one electronic psychrometer (hand
held) and one dry-wet bulb sling. That's it! No backup precip, wind,
pressure, etc...

Too bad the NWS still isn't controlling observation practices...I think
we'd all be better off.

It is common knowledge among aviator types that the Federal Aviation
Regulations are written in blood (meaning, the FAA will not change the
rules unless someone dies or a horrific crash happens). 9/11 anyone?
While we can all hope ASOS won't be responsible for another 3,000+
deaths, unfortunately maybe it will take another accident before the
FAA changes its policies.

As a side note, I forgot to mention this in my previous post...there
was a accident at a Florida airport several years ago where a pilot
crashed while on an approach in dense fog. The tower was found 1/3
liable for the accident because THEY DID NOT AUGMENT ASOS and it was
unrepresentative in its visibility report. However, I don't think the
pilot died so that is probably why I haven't heard how the FAA would
correct the problem.

Also, you may want to bring your gripe to the IBEX weather site.
IBEX is a contract weather observation company...they have stations all
over the country that do METARs. You may want to post a few questions
on that site and see what some of the observers will tell you how to
handle it. They are all trained and well qualified observers at the
larger airports, so they feel your pain when it comes to inaccurate
observations.

http://www.ibexwx.com/


Again, good luck."

=====
Raymond C. Martin, Jr.
Associate Meteorologist, AccuWeather Inc.- http://www.accuweather.com/
New Jersey Expressways and Tollways - http://www.njfreeways.com/
Ray's Winter Storm Archive - http://www.njfreeways.com/weather/

wrote in news:1112107667.081738.294380
@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

Fortunately, I recieved better and more intelligent advice elsewhere...
that figures, of course:



It is indeed fortunate that you received legitimate responses to such a
belligerent and ill conceived post. No one is arguing that freezing fog
was likely the result of a proper manual augmentation. But your cries
will fall upon deaf ears unless you refine your approach.

The fact that several people gave you that advice and your response was to
imply that they are wrong because they are posting here tells me that you
just don't get it. I've always written your loose-cannon approach off to
youthful exhuberence, but if you don't get over it soon, it will turn into
something that will create life-long difficulties for you.

This is the last time (I think) that I will risk a flaming by counseling
you against self-inflicting wounds. Its your life, but an open mind will
save you from a lot of future grief.

EdM wrote:
wrote in news:1112107667.081738.294380
@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

Fortunately, I recieved better and more intelligent advice
elsewhere...
that figures, of course:



It is indeed fortunate that you received legitimate responses to such
a
belligerent and ill conceived post. No one is arguing that freezing
fog
was likely the result of a proper manual augmentation. But your
cries
will fall upon deaf ears unless you refine your approach.

The fact that several people gave you that advice and your response
was to
imply that they are wrong because they are posting here tells me that
you
just don't get it. I've always written your loose-cannon approach
off to
youthful exhuberence, but if you don't get over it soon, it will turn
into
something that will create life-long difficulties for you.

This is the last time (I think) that I will risk a flaming by
counseling
you against self-inflicting wounds. Its your life, but an open mind
will
save you from a lot of future grief.

My point was not simply regarding posts like this one, but to the state
of this place in general... for example, here is the list of the most
recent topics as listed on Google Groups:

Lazy FAA Observer at Trenton-Mercer Airport
Bartlo thinks Jackson is sexy [ Pest posts, March 12-26
Is it time for ****seph Blerto's psest lits, yet?
NOMINATION - Vito Kuhn for 72 Raisins "Crackpot Religion" Award
(Fwd) Norm Nowrecki - Kookology - And The Sands Of Time
Another one of my predictions
FOAM WARNING
Barlo Blows Billygoats
6th Annual NE.Wx Snowfall Forecast Contest #8 - The Forecasts
digest, volume 2453447
Killington, VT
Change of Seasons
Major East coast event tomm
BARTLO M E L T D O W N UPDATE
Weekend Reading
Life support
Forecast Contest?
Pictures from State College, from yesterday and this morning
Petrus -your PC date is one day ahead
it WAS all about oil!
The BIG Winners... For once, NOT a New England storm...
AccuWeather Channel
the furure= future
JB Wins Over DT? NO!!!
Coastal next week?
Where is Bartlo?
A ? for Mike Moriarty: Ann Arbor's Snowiest?
Amarillo
; Calling out Dr Harvie....
Dignity

I mean, for Pete's sake, half the topics are ridiculous...

Then, we come to what has been increasingly annoying about this
place... attacks.

For example:
I posted the AccuWeather Channel news release. No, not to make Joel
happy or whatever you sick pathetic losers here think, but because I
thought SOME of you might just be a little interested. Instead,
MeatyUrologist makes one of the most insulting responses I have ever
read, for NO reason except perhaps the fact that he is actually a NWS
employee who hates us as much as SOME (not all) at AccuWeather hate
him.

Another one... I make a post bemoaning the lack of snow State College
is receiving compared to normal and compared to my home town, and
MeatyUrologist pops in again with "How much icing would it take to
collapse the fortress on Science Park road? Worker's Comp!!!"...

I could even mention the "blizzard condition" debates... TQ was the
star in those, of course...

The fact of the matter is that this is a deplorable place to discuss
anything. Only reason I still post here at all is to annoy the hell
out of those who would rather see me leave....there are certainly
better places to discuss the weather on the 'net.

=====
Raymond C. Martin, Jr.
Associate Meteorologist, AccuWeather Inc.- http://www.accuweather.com/
New Jersey Expressways and Tollways - http://www.njfreeways.com/
Ray's Winter Storm Archive - http://www.njfreeways.com/weather/

wrote:


Another one... I make a post bemoaning the lack of snow State College
is receiving compared to normal and compared to my home town, and
MeatyUrologist pops in again with "How much icing would it take to
collapse the fortress on Science Park road? Worker's Comp!!!"...


Oh I dunno -- my parents in State College are happy
the snow hasn't fallen this year.

Your life would be simplified, I think, by a killfile.
But I was mystified by your list of topics, half of
which I've not even seen -- my newserver is either
filtering heavily or seriously out of the loop! Is
Bartlo even still around? I haven't seen his name
on s.g.m in more than a year.

Scott