On Jan 26, 9:07*pm, Bonos Ego wrote:
On Jan 26, 8:55*pm, John Hall wrote:



In article ,

*Col writes:
I'm wondering about coastal British Columbia, the latitude
equivalent of the UK on the western side of North America.
Oceanic westerly winds yes, but no eqivalent warm current
to the North Altantic Drift. I'm sure this area isignificantly cooler
than the UK.

I thought that they *did* have a warm current there, so perhaps less
powerful than the NAD. Judging by the temperatures I see in the
newspaper each day for Vancouver, the winters in coastal BC don't seem
any colder than ours. In fact I have the impression that if anything
they tend to have less really cold weather than we do, perhaps because
of the blocking effect of the Rockies.
--
John Hall
* * * * * *"Acting is merely the art of keeping a large group of people
* * * * * * from coughing."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Sir Ralph Richardson (1902-83)

Don't know if this helps?http://www.miracosta.cc.ca.us/home/k...rld_circulatio...

The Southern tip of Chile has a prevailing wind that is onshore from
an ocean with a
cold current, but it is at 53° South

Try Punta Arenas http://weather.noaa.gov/weather/current/SCCI.html

On Jan 26, 8:36*pm, Graham Easterling
wrote:
On 26 Jan, 20:14, Len Wood wrote:





On Jan 25, 4:31*pm, Nicholas wrote:

I have just seen it advertised by Channel 4 that they are showing a
programme called Britain's Big Freeze tonight at 8pm. Channel 4 did
exactly the same thing last year despite last winter been only
slightly below average temperatures.
I think they are exaggering this winter a bit, even though it has been
cold, where I live has escaped most of the snow although many other
parts of the country haven't.
It should be worth watching and recording. However. if it is a similar
programme to last year it may not be worth recording as I think
Channel 4 exaggerated last year's winter.

Nicholas

Quite a good programme with some nice pics from previous severe
winters.

Alex Hill was raising the excuse for dodgy seasonal forecasts on
probabilities. Nice cop out. Of little interest to the public of
course. Perhaps they should only issue a forecast in that case, if the
probabilty is going to be greater than 80% for warm/cold , or wet/dry.

I have another gripe:
Sarah Davies (Met Office) churned out the old chestnut:
'Britian is kept warm most winters because we have the Gulf
Stream....so for our latitude we are quite mild compared with the rest
of the world'.
Mostly untrue.

Britain is kept warm because we are downwind of the relatively warm N.
Atlantic. Labrador at the same lat. on other side of the ocean is
downwind of the cold N. American continent.
It is the prevailing westerly winds that keep us warm. The Gulf Stream
plays only a small part in comparison.

Len Wood
Wembury, SW Devon

mmm. . .
Isn't most of the N. Atlantic warm because of the Gulf Stream / N.
Atlantic Drift?

Of course the N. Atlantic Drift & prevailing westerly winds are so
interlinked it is really the combination which keeps us mild. (Not
today though)

Didn't see the programme, so can't comment further!

Graham
Penzance - soon be Summer!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The Gulf stream does play a small role, but it is the thermal inertia
of the upwind ocean in winter that is the major factor.
A paper was published in the QJ of the Roy Met Soc a few years ago
where some bods had done some sums:

Three processes (Seager et al. 2002)
contribute to the east-west symmetry
of temperature (15-20 deg.C in winter):

Half of the heat transport (accounting for about 9 deg.C)
is by the atmosphere due to orographic forcing by the Rockies.
This influences the position of the Icelandic Low
and hence our mild westerlies.
2) Seasonal and local release of heat previously stored
by the ocean accounts for about 8 deg.C.
3) Northward heat transport by the ocean (ie Gulf stream)
accounts for only about 3 deg.C.

Len
Wembury, SW Devon

In article
,
Bonos Ego writes:
On Jan 26, 9:07*pm, Bonos Ego wrote:
On Jan 26, 8:55*pm, John Hall wrote:



In article ,

*Col writes:
I'm wondering about coastal British Columbia, the latitude
equivalent of the UK on the western side of North America.
Oceanic westerly winds yes, but no eqivalent warm current
to the North Altantic Drift. I'm sure this area isignificantly cooler
than the UK.

I thought that they *did* have a warm current there, so perhaps less
powerful than the NAD. Judging by the temperatures I see in the
newspaper each day for Vancouver, the winters in coastal BC don't seem
any colder than ours. In fact I have the impression that if anything
they tend to have less really cold weather than we do, perhaps because
of the blocking effect of the Rockies.

Don't know if this helps?http://www.miracosta.cc.ca.us/home/kmeldahl/
currents/world_circulatio...

The Southern tip of Chile has a prevailing wind that is onshore from
an ocean with a
cold current, but it is at 53° South

Try Punta Arenas http://weather.noaa.gov/weather/current/SCCI.html

Well spotted. Having looked at your previous link, I can see the cold
current on the map, though judging by how thin the arrow is it seems a
fairly weak affair. Their coldest month is July, with an average max of
4C and an average min of -2C. So colder than the UK, but not
dramatically so.

http://www.climate-zone.com/climate/...nta-arenas.htm

OTOH, South America is too thin that far south to provide its own source
of really cold air from the continental exterior.
--
John Hall
"Acting is merely the art of keeping a large group of people
from coughing."
Sir Ralph Richardson (1902-83)

On 26 Jan, 20:51, John Hall wrote:
In article
,
*Graham Easterling writes:





On 26 Jan, 20:14, Len Wood wrote:
On Jan 25, 4:31*pm, Nicholas wrote:

I have just seen it advertised by Channel 4 that they are showing a
programme called Britain's Big Freeze tonight at 8pm. Channel 4 did
exactly the same thing last year despite last winter been only
slightly below average temperatures.
I think they are exaggering this winter a bit, even though it has been
cold, where I live has escaped most of the snow although many other
parts of the country haven't.
It should be worth watching and recording. However. if it is a similar
programme to last year it may not be worth recording as I think
Channel 4 exaggerated last year's winter.

Nicholas

Quite a good programme with some nice pics from previous severe
winters.

Alex Hill was raising the excuse for dodgy seasonal forecasts on
probabilities. Nice cop out. Of little interest to the public of
course. Perhaps they should only issue a forecast in that case, if the
probabilty is going to be greater than 80% for warm/cold , or wet/dry.

I have another gripe:
Sarah Davies (Met Office) churned out the old chestnut:
'Britian is kept warm most winters because we have the Gulf
Stream....so for our latitude we are quite mild compared with the rest
of the world'.
Mostly untrue.

Britain is kept warm because we are downwind of the relatively warm N.
Atlantic. Labrador at the same lat. on other side of the ocean is
downwind of the cold N. American continent.
It is the prevailing westerly winds that keep us warm. The Gulf Stream
plays only a small part in comparison.

Len Wood
Wembury, SW Devon

mmm. . .
Isn't most of the N. Atlantic warm because of the Gulf Stream / N.
Atlantic Drift?

Of course the N. Atlantic Drift & prevailing westerly winds are so
interlinked it is really the combination which keeps us mild. (Not
today though)

Didn't see the programme, so can't comment further!

The difference in temperature at our latitude between the continental
interiors and the oceans is surely much larger than the difference
between ocean with a warm current (roughly 10C) and ocean with a cold
current (roughly 0C).

Yes, I would agree. The ocean has a moderating effect on climate
irrespective of the currents.

The trouble is that the interlinking of prevailing
winds and ocean currents is such that I don't think there's anywhere at
our latitude where the prevailing wind is onshore from an ocean with a
cold current, so that there aren't any direct comparisons that can be
made to help establish the relatuve importance of the two factors.

I'd agree with that as well. But, if we compare Cornwall with say
Oxfordshire, the temperature range is much less, due to the oceanic
influence, but the difference is almost entirely down to the mild
Cornish winters.
From 1977 to 1990 I lived in Wiltshire (near Swindon) and whilst
winter temperature were several degrees lower than Cornwall, the
average Summer temperatures were very similar (though of course the
diurnal range was greater). I think this indicates the effect of the N
Atlantic Drift. Certainly, the effect is very marked once you get up
to the Scottish Islands.

It's an interesting area, prevailing winds, currents & SSTs, and I
think to rule 1 element out is extremely rash.

Graham (Geography degree as it happens! )
Penzance

On Jan 26, 9:49*pm, Graham Easterling
wrote:
On 26 Jan, 20:51, John Hall wrote:





In article
,
*Graham Easterling writes:

On 26 Jan, 20:14, Len Wood wrote:
On Jan 25, 4:31*pm, Nicholas wrote:

I have just seen it advertised by Channel 4 that they are showing a
programme called Britain's Big Freeze tonight at 8pm. Channel 4 did
exactly the same thing last year despite last winter been only
slightly below average temperatures.
I think they are exaggering this winter a bit, even though it has been
cold, where I live has escaped most of the snow although many other
parts of the country haven't.
It should be worth watching and recording. However. if it is a similar
programme to last year it may not be worth recording as I think
Channel 4 exaggerated last year's winter.

Nicholas

Quite a good programme with some nice pics from previous severe
winters.

Alex Hill was raising the excuse for dodgy seasonal forecasts on
probabilities. Nice cop out. Of little interest to the public of
course. Perhaps they should only issue a forecast in that case, if the
probabilty is going to be greater than 80% for warm/cold , or wet/dry.

I have another gripe:
Sarah Davies (Met Office) churned out the old chestnut:
'Britian is kept warm most winters because we have the Gulf
Stream....so for our latitude we are quite mild compared with the rest
of the world'.
Mostly untrue.

Britain is kept warm because we are downwind of the relatively warm N.
Atlantic. Labrador at the same lat. on other side of the ocean is
downwind of the cold N. American continent.
It is the prevailing westerly winds that keep us warm. The Gulf Stream
plays only a small part in comparison.

Len Wood
Wembury, SW Devon

mmm. . .
Isn't most of the N. Atlantic warm because of the Gulf Stream / N.
Atlantic Drift?

Of course the N. Atlantic Drift & prevailing westerly winds are so
interlinked it is really the combination which keeps us mild. (Not
today though)

Didn't see the programme, so can't comment further!

The difference in temperature at our latitude between the continental
interiors and the oceans is surely much larger than the difference
between ocean with a warm current (roughly 10C) and ocean with a cold
current (roughly 0C).

Yes, I would agree. The ocean has a moderating effect on climate
irrespective of the currents.

The trouble is that the interlinking of prevailing
winds and ocean currents is such that I don't think there's anywhere at
our latitude where the prevailing wind is onshore from an ocean with a
cold current, so that there aren't any direct comparisons that can be
made to help establish the relatuve importance of the two factors.

I'd agree with that as well. But, if we compare Cornwall with say
Oxfordshire, the temperature range is much less, due to the oceanic
influence, but the difference is almost entirely down to the mild
Cornish winters.
From 1977 to 1990 I lived in Wiltshire (near Swindon) and whilst
winter temperature were several degrees lower than Cornwall, the
average Summer temperatures were very similar (though of course the
diurnal range was greater). I think this indicates the effect of the N
Atlantic Drift. Certainly, the effect is very marked once you get up
to the Scottish Islands.

It's an interesting area, prevailing winds, currents & SSTs, and I
think to rule 1 element out is extremely rash.

Graham (Geography degree as it happens! )
Penzance- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are not surely claiming Graham that it is milder in Cornwall
compared with Swindon in winter because of the N.Atlantic drift?!
It is simply because of Cornwall's proximity to the N.Atlantic and is
surrounded by sea that it is milder!

No one is ruling out all contributions as I have pointed out in my
above post.
It is just a matter of which are the major ones.

Len (Physics degree as it happens! That is, less arm waving type
reasoning)

SNIP

You are not surely claiming *Graham that it is milder in Cornwall
compared with Swindon in winter because of the N.Atlantic drift?!
It is simply because of Cornwall's proximity to the N.Atlantic and is
surrounded by sea that it is milder!

It's certainly a factor. Just look at maps of winter air & sea
isotherms. The sea is particularly warm off the west coast of the UK
because of the N Atlantic Drift. The strength of the prevailing
westerly determines how far the influence stretches eastwards. In the
case of this January, about as far as the Tamar!

Graham

On Jan 27, 8:38*am, Graham Easterling
wrote:
SNIP

You are not surely claiming *Graham that it is milder in Cornwall
compared with Swindon in winter because of the N.Atlantic drift?!
It is simply because of Cornwall's proximity to the N.Atlantic and is
surrounded by sea that it is milder!

It's certainly a factor. Just look at maps of winter air & sea
isotherms. The sea is particularly warm off the west coast of the UK
because of the N Atlantic Drift. *The strength of the prevailing
westerly determines how far the influence stretches eastwards. In the
case of this January, about as far as the Tamar!

Graham

Swindon is also benefitting from the little bit of extra warmth from
the N. Atlantic drift.The wind does not stop at the Tamar valley.
But Cornwall is really benefitting from its proximity to the sea,
irrespective of any currents.

Len

On Tuesday 26 Jan 2010 20:32, John Hall scribbled:

Yes, that annoyed me too. Meteorologists these days seem mostly to have
degrees in physics rather than geography, which may help to explain it.

"These days"? It was the same fifty years ago. Geography is useful but
maths, physics and chemistry is what has always been essential.

--
Graham P Davis, Bracknell, Berks., UK. E-mail: newsman not newsboy
"I wear the cheese. It does not wear me."

"John Hall" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Hall writes:
In article ,
Col writes:
I'm wondering about coastal British Columbia, the latitude
equivalent of the UK on the western side of North America.
Oceanic westerly winds yes, but no eqivalent warm current
to the North Altantic Drift. I'm sure this area isignificantly cooler
than the UK.

I thought that they *did* have a warm current there, so perhaps less
powerful than the NAD. Judging by the temperatures I see in the
newspaper each day for Vancouver, the winters in coastal BC don't seem
any colder than ours. In fact I have the impression that if anything
they tend to have less really cold weather than we do, perhaps because
of the blocking effect of the Rockies.

Just looked it up on Wikipedia. In both December and January Vancouver's
mean max is 6C and the mean min is 1C; February is a bit warmer. So very
much the same as our values. However their coldest ever month, January
1950, was considerably colder than our coldest, with a monthly mean of
-6.3C

But Vancouver is situated at 49° 15'N, further south than any point
in the UK and yet for such an oceanic location, it still has just 6C
as it's January max, considerably lower than Cornwall though I accept
that Cornwall is even more maritime than Vancouver.
--
Col

Bolton, Lancashire
160m asl

"Col" wrote in message
...

"John Hall" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Hall writes:
In article ,
Col writes:
I'm wondering about coastal British Columbia, the latitude
equivalent of the UK on the western side of North America.
Oceanic westerly winds yes, but no eqivalent warm current
to the North Altantic Drift. I'm sure this area isignificantly cooler
than the UK.

I thought that they *did* have a warm current there, so perhaps less
powerful than the NAD. Judging by the temperatures I see in the
newspaper each day for Vancouver, the winters in coastal BC don't seem
any colder than ours. In fact I have the impression that if anything
they tend to have less really cold weather than we do, perhaps because
of the blocking effect of the Rockies.

Just looked it up on Wikipedia. In both December and January Vancouver's
mean max is 6C and the mean min is 1C; February is a bit warmer. So very
much the same as our values. However their coldest ever month, January
1950, was considerably colder than our coldest, with a monthly mean of
-6.3C

But Vancouver is situated at 49° 15'N, further south than any point
in the UK and yet for such an oceanic location, it still has just 6C
as it's January max, considerably lower than Cornwall though I accept
that Cornwall is even more maritime than Vancouver.
--
Col

Bolton, Lancashire
160m asl


Col. 6C is below most of southern England average Jan. max. which is around
6.5C to 7.0C IIRC.
Average max. for January at Crowthorne in Berkshire was +6.8C.

Will
--