Last night, there was a report on the melting Arctic sea ice and how it is
affecting our weather:
It was followed by a debate chaired by Jeremy Paxman between the new leader
of the Green Party and a typical Conservative sceptic. The relevant section
starts 35 mins 18 second in.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ht_05_09_2012/

Cheers, Alastair.

On Sep 6, 9:00*pm, "Alastair McDonald"
wrote:
Last night, there was a report on the melting Arctic sea ice and how it is
affecting our weather:
It was followed by a debate chaired by Jeremy Paxman between the new leader
of the Green Party and a typical Conservative sceptic. The relevant section
starts 35 mins 18 second in.http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ht_05_09_2012/

Just another bunch of fools calling each other names. The MP was
suckered into some propaganda from an upcoming TV show.

"Weatherlawyer" wrote in message
...
On Sep 6, 9:00 pm, "Alastair McDonald"
wrote:
Last night, there was a report on the melting Arctic sea ice and how it is
affecting our weather:
It was followed by a debate chaired by Jeremy Paxman between the new
leader
of the Green Party and a typical Conservative sceptic. The relevant
section
starts 35 mins 18 second
in.http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ht_05_09_2012/

Just another bunch of fools calling each other names. The MP was
suckered into some propaganda from an upcoming TV show.

Looking at those pictures showing the difference between 1979 and today
seems to show that most of the ice melt is occuring on the Russian/American
side of the pole whereas it looks virtually unchanged on the European side ,
am I wrong ?

RonB

"ron button" wrote in message
...

Looking at those pictures showing the difference between 1979 and today
seems to show that most of the ice melt is occuring on the
Russian/American side of the pole whereas it looks virtually unchanged on
the European side , am I wrong ?

There have been bigger changes on the Bering Sea side of the Arctic, but the
ice has also retreated from Svalbard. However, it is a bit misleading
because the ice is moving from the Pacific into the Atlantic. See this map
of the way the buoys have moved since April:
http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northp...tTrackMap.html
Moreover the North Pole is not in the centre of the Arctic Ocean, being much
closer to Svalbard than to the Bering Strait.

Cheers, Alastair.

On Sep 7, 10:49*am, "ron button" wrote:
"Weatherlawyer" wrote in message

...
On Sep 6, 9:00 pm, "Alastair McDonald"

wrote:
Last night, there was a report on the melting Arctic sea ice and how it is
affecting our weather:
It was followed by a debate chaired by Jeremy Paxman between the new
leader
of the Green Party and a typical Conservative sceptic. The relevant
section
starts 35 mins 18 second
in.http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ht_05_09_2012/

Just another bunch of fools calling each other names. The MP was
suckered into some propaganda from an upcoming TV show.

Looking at those pictures showing the difference between 1979 and today
seems to show that most of the ice melt is occuring on the Russian/American
side of the pole whereas it looks virtually unchanged on the European side ,
am I wrong ?

No. NOAA has pointed that out. Something to do with the thermo-haline
column. Interesting that Eurasia has had floods when North America has
had droughts -a particularly bad example of both this year.

I would have thought the ice levels and types depends heavily on the
anticyclonic behaviour of the Arctic air. Maybe those anticyclones
depend heavily on the sea ice?

Presumably also mixing is accelerated in storm systems. I can only
imagine that the huge heat sump that is the Arctic Ocean is storing up
all this negative heat.

Be it dry or Be it wet
The weather will always pay its debt.
Hot or Cold, Dry or Wet
Eventually average is what you get.
That's the problem with statistics.

Nobody mentioned the weather in the scene. Some clips about cloud
might help the situation from the advertisement; so, presumably, no in
depth research on the upcoming programme.

You can get charts of the Arctic from the USA and Canada. The
Canadians produce a very good sea level pressure chart but cut Russia
out of it.
Stupid!
Also the Canadian met site is very poor for archived stuff. They have
MetOfficitis. Oddly its antipodean cousin does exactly the same. (Yes
I know it's not odd when you consider the home base.)

Does anyone know if WetterZentrale harbours any sea level Arctic
stuff?
(Why is it always the Germans?)

On 07/09/2012 11:17, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Sep 7, 10:49 am, "ron button" wrote:
"Weatherlawyer" wrote in message

...
On Sep 6, 9:00 pm, "Alastair McDonald"

wrote:
Last night, there was a report on the melting Arctic sea ice and how it is
affecting our weather:
It was followed by a debate chaired by Jeremy Paxman between the new
leader
of the Green Party and a typical Conservative sceptic. The relevant
section
starts 35 mins 18 second
in.http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ht_05_09_2012/

Just another bunch of fools calling each other names. The MP was
suckered into some propaganda from an upcoming TV show.

Looking at those pictures showing the difference between 1979 and today
seems to show that most of the ice melt is occuring on the Russian/American
side of the pole whereas it looks virtually unchanged on the European side ,
am I wrong ?

No. NOAA has pointed that out. Something to do with the thermo-haline
column. Interesting that Eurasia has had floods when North America has
had droughts -a particularly bad example of both this year.

I would have thought the ice levels and types depends heavily on the
anticyclonic behaviour of the Arctic air. Maybe those anticyclones
depend heavily on the sea ice?

Presumably also mixing is accelerated in storm systems. I can only
imagine that the huge heat sump that is the Arctic Ocean is storing up
all this negative heat.

Be it dry or Be it wet
The weather will always pay its debt.
Hot or Cold, Dry or Wet
Eventually average is what you get.
That's the problem with statistics.

Nobody mentioned the weather in the scene. Some clips about cloud
might help the situation from the advertisement; so, presumably, no in
depth research on the upcoming programme.

You can get charts of the Arctic from the USA and Canada. The
Canadians produce a very good sea level pressure chart but cut Russia
out of it.
Stupid!
Also the Canadian met site is very poor for archived stuff. They have
MetOfficitis. Oddly its antipodean cousin does exactly the same. (Yes
I know it's not odd when you consider the home base.)

Does anyone know if WetterZentrale harbours any sea level Arctic
stuff?
(Why is it always the Germans?)



An intelligent man like you should have figured that out. You will also
go on the list. Don't tell him your name Pike!

On Sep 6, 9:00*pm, "Alastair McDonald"
wrote:
Last night, there was a report on the melting Arctic sea ice and how it is
affecting our weather:
It was followed by a debate chaired by Jeremy Paxman between the new leader
of the Green Party and a typical Conservative sceptic. The relevant section
starts 35 mins 18 second in.http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ht_05_09_2012/

Cheers, Alastair.

I did not see anything there about how the melting Arctic ice is
affecting our weather.
Adam Scaife UKMO talked about how it could produce wetter summers and
colder easterly winters.
Presumably he was referring to England and Wales here? A bit of
southern UK bias as usual.

I was amused by the Beeb showing a clip of the rather wet Jubillee
Thames river pageant.
This was surely a very normal wet summer's day.


Peter Wadhams and the report was not particularly alarmist in my view.
Wadhams mentioned the possible ameliorating effect of clouds.

I thought Lilley's stance was ridiculous, slavishly sticking to the
IPCC report.
The only sensible thing he raised was the issue of subsidies for
things like wind farms.

Len Wood
Wembury, SW Devon

On 07/09/2012 12:42, Len Wood wrote:
On Sep 6, 9:00 pm, "Alastair McDonald"
wrote:
Last night, there was a report on the melting Arctic sea ice and how it is
affecting our weather:
It was followed by a debate chaired by Jeremy Paxman between the new leader
of the Green Party and a typical Conservative sceptic. The relevant section
starts 35 mins 18 second in.http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ht_05_09_2012/

Cheers, Alastair.

I did not see anything there about how the melting Arctic ice is
affecting our weather.
Adam Scaife UKMO talked about how it could produce wetter summers and
colder easterly winters.

If the melting ice changes the thermal flux balance and that shifts the
jetstream around then it is entirely possible. There are hints that more
than one mechanism can do this (eg solar UV flux).

Presumably he was referring to England and Wales here? A bit of
southern UK bias as usual.

I was amused by the Beeb showing a clip of the rather wet Jubillee
Thames river pageant.
This was surely a very normal wet summer's day.

Ugh. It was a bit worse that a normal wet summers day. It was perishing
up here in North Yorkshire but thankfully it did stay dry. If you look
at the photos you would assume the celebrations were held on her actual
birthday in February! Adults were in duffle coats and jumpers.

Peter Wadhams and the report was not particularly alarmist in my view.
Wadhams mentioned the possible ameliorating effect of clouds.

I think he was reasonably balanced on the whole. It is clear that there
is extraordinary melting going on in the Arctic recently.

I thought Lilley's stance was ridiculous, slavishly sticking to the
IPCC report.

It was rather funny that he couldn't even remember whether it was IPC,
IPPC or ICP but then insisted he knew more science than Peter Wadhams.

The only sensible thing he raised was the issue of subsidies for
things like wind farms.

I was hoping that he was going to demonstrate in what ways the Stern
Report was wrong instead he just went into an incoherent ramble about
why we can't do anything about AGW and should not try. There is a real
limit to what we can sensibly do to ameliorate climate change but he
didn't address that issue at all.

The one good thing that did come out of it was that Lilley looked
absolutely ridiculous just like the right wing dinosaur he is.

And he concedes that climate change is happening it is just that his
position is "eat drink and be merry because .... the kids can pick up
the tab tomorrow". You can substitute a more alarmist ending to taste.

I can't say I was impressed with the Green Party leader either.
She would have us all living as hair shirted subsistence farming
troglodytes given half a chance.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Friday, September 7, 2012 12:42:34 PM UTC+1, Len Wood wrote:

Adam Scaife UKMO talked about how it could produce wetter summers and

colder easterly winters.

Presumably he was referring to England and Wales here? A bit of

southern UK bias as usual.

=================

I'm not sure why you would presume that. Adam Scaife's findings encompass the greater part of Europe, as they would if we're talking about colder E'ly or NE'ly types in winter.

A prediction of wetter summers would be because his findings support the idea of an average storm track closer to 40 deg N than 50 deg N - again manifesting over a larger area than than just England and Wales.

What's interesting is that he and the UKMO are working with an extended model with vertical extent up to 85km rather than the 45km up until now. This importantly takes in the stratosphere. A re-forecast of winter 2009-10 gives a much better result with the extended model.

Stephen.

On Sep 7, 1:57*pm, Martin Brown
wrote:

I thought Lilley's stance was ridiculous, slavishly sticking to the
IPCC report.

It was rather funny that he couldn't even remember whether it was IPC,
IPPC or ICP but then insisted he knew more science than Peter Wadhams.

The only sensible thing he raised was the issue of subsidies for
things like wind farms.

I was hoping that he was going to demonstrate in what ways the Stern
Report was wrong instead he just went into an incoherent ramble about
why we can't do anything about AGW and should not try. There is a real
limit to what we can sensibly do to ameliorate climate change but he
didn't address that issue at all.

The one good thing that did come out of it was that Lilley looked
absolutely ridiculous just like the right wing dinosaur he is.

And he concedes that climate change is happening it is just that his
position is "eat drink and be merry because .... the kids can pick up
the tab tomorrow". You can substitute a more alarmist ending to taste.

I can't say I was impressed with the Green Party leader either.
She would have us all living as hair shirted subsistence farming
troglodytes given half a chance.

You want it both ways.

Paxman was content to fold his arms and let the parties fly at each
other. Once he had netted the MP he was on safe ground. Of course the
MP should have known it wasn't going to be about what he was informed
it was going to be about.

Not that I know anything about the IPCC report.

I gather he was well informed on that.
But it is just statistics whoever is saying whatever.
We don't know why the ice is melting.

With low pressure systems and a flood of river water on the surface
any ice would soon melt. The currents tend to take it towards North
America where it tends to drain (preferentially) via the Davis
Straight.