"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 05:30:50 -0800 (PST), Graham Easterling wrote:

Estimated pay back time was 15 years+ using just for hot water, using
for heating was totally out of question

Don't understand this bit. What you use the power for is based on what
appliances you are using when the sun's out (or it's bright).

I sort of get the feeling Will is confusing Solar Thermal and Solar PV.
The
former generate heat the latter electricity.


My heating is by oil and logs. It would be nice to use solar energy for
heating as well but I was told that because of the size of my roof that
heating the house by electricity was out of the question using PV arrays. My
electric bill is pretty cheap anyway (in fact I'm still in credit due to
former poor estimated bills). My heating bill is not huge either come to
that as we use our own timber for logs and we keep a cool house :-) So for
me to lash out on a solar system is simply not worth it unless somebody can
tell me differently.

Will
--
http://www.lyneside.demon.co.uk/Hayt...antage_Pro.htm
Will Hand (Haytor, Devon, 1017 feet asl)
---------------------------------------------

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 10:28:21 -0000, Ken Cook wrote:

Any guidance much appreciated.

If you are happy about the ethics involved and that it is pure money
investment scheme and nothing to do with saving the planet then fine. I'll
just regard you as a rich leech on society.

The ethics are that the money that pays the FIT is raised from a levy on
everyones electricity bill from the very poorest up. The poor can't afford
the required capital investment so are effectively locked out of joining in
but still have to pay.

As a money based venture either it is economically viable or it is not. The
FIT payments distort the market, by paying seriously over the going price for
wholesale electricity. Solar PV would not be economically viable without the
FIT payments.

The electricity generated is not "green" even the best PV panels are not much
more than 30% efficient, if that and efficiency drops as they get hot (like
in summer). Also because of the variable and unpredictable nature of the
power produced conventional plant has to be kept on "hot standby", burning
fuel. to provide backup so any pretence that this is "carbon free" power is
just that, a pretence.

There is quite a high energy input in their manufacture and transport from
China. I seriously doubt that Solar PV ever becomes energy positive, ie the
system has produced more energy than was consumed in manufacture, transport,
installation, maintenance and disposal.

--
Cheers Dave.
Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL.

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 15:47:04 -0000, Eskimo Will wrote:

It would be nice to use solar energy for heating as well but I was told
that because of the size of my roof that heating the house by
electricity was out of the question using PV arrays.

Space heating any conventional house with Solar PV is out of the question.

Eskimo Will wrote:

"Len Wood" wrote in message
...
On Feb 25, 10:28 am, "Ken Cook" wrote:
Hi, All,
I'm thinking seriously about installing these PV panels and am looking
for
advice. I have a feeling there could be some expertise on this ng. I
estimate about 2,200 kWh per annum for Copley from available data on the
web, although the installers that I have quotes from reckon a touch more
(believe it or not!)
I hope to wire the immersion heater through them and use as much as I can
rather than export. I have until April to decide as the FIT payment is
reduced again then.
I am thinking of a 3kW system. Does anyone out there have them? Are
they any
good overall or are they a con?
Any guidance much appreciated.

Copley still cold and cloudy 8cm snow lying and 1cm fresh fall this
morning,
but it's melting slowly (:0)http://www.kencook.magix.net/#Latest

Hi Ken,
I have a 1.9 kW system with 8 panels. That is all I could get on my
roof.
I am pleased with it, but I did get it installed last Feb before the
feed-in tariff went down.

I received 1700 kWh over the last year.

The price of the panels has come down to compensate a little for the
lower tariff now.
I would go for as many panels as you can. 3 kW sounds good.
Then you can use the decent amount you are generating on sunny days in
the summer.
==============================

I explored it last year but was told by a very good reputable company
that it wasn't worth it for my large Edwardian house. I appreciated
their honesty. The problem was not the cloudy skies we get on Dartmoor
but the nature of my roof. It is not one slope but essentially 4
separate steeply pitched roofs each covering a relatively small area.
Estimated pay back time was 15 years+ using just for hot water, using
for heating was totally out of question with only a small roof area
facing south. So a waste of time as we will move up north before then.
To be more green we now burn more logs in the winter and try and use
less oil.

Will
---------------------------------
I didn't think you had heating ;-)

On Feb 25, 3:52*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 10:28:21 -0000, Ken Cook wrote:
Any guidance much appreciated.

If you are happy about the ethics involved and that it is pure money
investment scheme and nothing to do with saving the planet then fine. I'll
just regard you as a rich leech on society.

The ethics are that the money that pays the FIT is raised from a levy on
everyones electricity bill from the very poorest up. The poor can't afford
the required capital investment so are effectively locked out of joining in
but still have to pay.

As a money based venture either it is economically viable or it is not. The
FIT payments distort the market, by paying seriously over the going price for
wholesale electricity. Solar PV would not be economically viable without the
FIT payments.

The electricity generated is not "green" even the best PV panels are not much
more than 30% efficient, if that and efficiency drops as they get hot (like
in summer). Also because of the variable and unpredictable nature of the
power produced conventional plant has to be kept on "hot standby", burning
fuel. to provide backup so any pretence that this is "carbon free" power is
just that, a pretence.

There is quite a high energy input in their manufacture and transport from
China. I seriously doubt that Solar PV ever becomes energy positive, ie the
system has produced more energy than was consumed in manufacture, transport,
installation, maintenance and disposal.

--
Cheers Dave.
Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL.

Your point about efficiency of PV panels is true.
But you name any energy system that is efficient. Input always greatly
exceeds output.

We are only chipping away at the energy crisis with these green
technologies.

We are all doomed unless the government gets off its arse and puts
tidal power and nuclear power into place as an urgent priority.

Len
Wembury

On Monday, 25 February 2013 16:50:45 UTC, Len Wood wrote:

Your point about efficiency of PV panels is true.

But you name any energy system that is efficient. Input always greatly

exceeds output.

What about heat pumps? Output input every time?

- Tom.

For anyone in the Southampton area next month a public talk on PV panels
from someone who designs the control systems

Monday, 11 Mar 2013, Roger Munford - wide ranging talk , from the technical
aspects of
solar photovoltaic generation, the grid, storage, politics and economics
all of which have changed dramatically in the last year

Southwestern Arms (upstairs room) , 36 Adelaide Rd, St Denys,
Southampton, SO17 2HW
Time: 19:00 for talk 19:30 to 21:00. Plenty of time for questions and
answers .
Entry by a purchase at the bar or by donation in the tin, for the venue
facilities.

Monday, 15 Apr 2013, (third Monday) Prof Lindy Holden-Dye, optogenetics

Monthly talks on a science subject
Future talks, usually the second Monday of the month.
To Be Confirmed (TBC) list, for future talks, in no particular order
a/ Dr Helen Czerski , the science of bubbles
b/ Prof Chris Rhodes : What happens when we run out of oil ?
c/ A speaker on infectious disease control
d/ Kim Webb, talk on horology - clock and watch escapements etc
e/ Ian Bryant: "What are Minds ?"
f/ A speaker on geology
g/ Dr Ivo Tews: Crtstalography of organic materials
Details of venue and any changes, valid email address etc
http://www.divdev.fsnet.co.uk/scicaf.htm
recent past talks, including transcripts of talks and Q&A
http://www.divdev.fsnet.co.uk/scicaf2.htm


Ken Cook wrote in message
...
Hi, All,
I'm thinking seriously about installing these PV panels and am looking for
advice. I have a feeling there could be some expertise on this ng. I
estimate about 2,200 kWh per annum for Copley from available data on the
web, although the installers that I have quotes from reckon a touch more
(believe it or not!)
I hope to wire the immersion heater through them and use as much as I can
rather than export. I have until April to decide as the FIT payment is
reduced again then.
I am thinking of a 3kW system. Does anyone out there have them? Are they
any
good overall or are they a con?
Any guidance much appreciated.

Copley still cold and cloudy 8cm snow lying and 1cm fresh fall this
morning,
but it's melting slowly (:0)
http://www.kencook.magix.net/#Latest

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 10:48:53 -0800 (PST), Tom wrote:

But you name any energy system that is efficient. Input always greatly
exceeds output.

Ultimately the laws of of thermodynamics says that always has to be the case,
provided you prefix "output" with "useful".

What about heat pumps? Output input every time?

When installed and running yes (though air source are crap overall with air
temps between about freezing and a few degrees higher).

I think that PV has such a high manufacturing energy cost, poor conversion
effciency and only work for a few hours a day (on average) from a low energy
density source that they are going to really struggle to recoup a significant
amount of the energy used to make 'em.

Solar Thermal is better, lower manufacturing energy cost, conversion
effciency double if not more than that of PV, much better chance of becoming
energy posistive.

--
Cheers Dave.
Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL.

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 08:50:45 -0800 (PST), Len Wood wrote:

We are only chipping away at the energy crisis with these green
technologies.


We are all doomed unless the government gets off its arse and puts
tidal power and nuclear power into place as an urgent priority.

Tidal is not available all the time but at least it's predictable.

Nuclear is the the only viable option with current energy demands. The
government are trying but they aren't allowed to guarantee to pay the nuclear
firms 40p plus per unit for their power, index linked for 25 years...

After Merkels knee jerk reaction after Fukishima the entire nuclear industry
doesn't trust any government to not arbitrially pull the plug on them. Bear
in mind that Germany with it's nukes was a net exporter of power, the moment
they switched 'em off Germany became a net importer of power. Guess where
most of that power comes from, coal...

Current UK demand 49.53 GW coming from:

Coal 20.35 GW
CC Gas 17.90 GW
Nuke 7.84 GW

Wind 1.03 GW
Dutch 0.89 GW
Hydro 0.52 GW
BioMass 0.50 GW
Pumped 0.28 GW
France 0.12 GW

0.50 GW is being exported to Eire.

--
Cheers Dave.
Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL.

On Monday, February 25, 2013 10:28:21 AM UTC, Ken Cook wrote:
Hi, All,

I'm thinking seriously about installing these PV panels and am looking for

advice. I have a feeling there could be some expertise on this ng. I

estimate about 2,200 kWh per annum for Copley from available data on the

web, although the installers that I have quotes from reckon a touch more

(believe it or not!)

I hope to wire the immersion heater through them and use as much as I can

rather than export. I have until April to decide as the FIT payment is

reduced again then.

I am thinking of a 3kW system. Does anyone out there have them? Are they any

good overall or are they a con?

Any guidance much appreciated.



Copley still cold and cloudy 8cm snow lying and 1cm fresh fall this morning,

but it's melting slowly (:0)

http://www.kencook.magix.net/#Latest

My brother has 14 panels on his roof, and he showed me the generation figures for the sunny days he had at the end of May 2012.

I was surprised that even at the time of maximum solar radiation, his panels were only generating just over 2kwh. That is hardly enough to power the washing machine on a hot wash.

For much of the day the amount of electricity generated was between 1 and 1.5 kwh.

He was not too bothered, though, because he was selling to the grid.

My father has solar heated oil filled panels on his roof, which heat the water in his hot water tank. From my experience of those, when the sun shines, even on a spring or autumn day, the water gets very hot.

He tries to take advantage by using his dishwasher and washing machine when he has the 'free' hot water, but I don't know how much it saves him in electricity.

If I had the choice, I think I would plump for my fathers' hot water system, but my appliances are all cold fill, so would need to be replaced which makes it a non-starter for me.