On Tuesday, 29 September 2015 16:32:30 UTC+1, Stephen Davenport wrote:
On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 9:14:43 AM UTC-4, xmetman wrote:
This is the fifth sunny dry day in a row in mid-Devon but it's not an Indian Summer, because according to the BBC Weather presenters "Indian summers don't occur in September", and I've heard that a couple of times today on the BBC.


=========

They would be wrong. It's not dependent on month but rather, strictly speaking, a fine and warmer period after the first killing frost. However, it is a term borrowed from North America (New England, specifically); and perhaps we should return to the notions of Old Wives' summer, St. Luke's summer and St. Martin's summer - the latter two of which are date dependent (October and November respectively).

The AMS glossary summarizes Indian summer thus:

"A period, in mid- or late autumn, of abnormally warm weather, generally clear skies, sunny but hazy days, and cool nights.

In New England, at least one killing frost and preferably a substantial period of normally cool weather must precede this warm spell in order for it to be considered a true "Indian summer." It does not occur every year, and in some years there may be two or three Indian summers. The term is most often heard in the northeastern United States, but its usage extends throughout English- speaking countries. It dates back at least to 1778, but its origin is not certain; the most probable suggestions relate it to the way that the American Indians availed themselves of this extra opportunity to increase their winter stores.

The comparable period in Europe is termed the Old Wives' summer, and, poetically, may be referred to as halcyon days. In England, dependent upon dates of occurrence, such a period may be called St. Martin's summer, St. Luke's summer, and formerly All-hallown summer."

Stephen

If the prerequisites for an indian summer depended on the first frost (of any type let alone a sharp one) in the British Isles, then most years would be inelligible because the first frost is occuring later sometimes well into December in recent years especially the south.

Bruce.

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 11:52:20 AM UTC-4, xmetman wrote:
On Tuesday, 29 September 2015 16:32:30 UTC+1, Stephen Davenport wrote:
On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 9:14:43 AM UTC-4, xmetman wrote:
This is the fifth sunny dry day in a row in mid-Devon but it's not an Indian Summer, because according to the BBC Weather presenters "Indian summers don't occur in September", and I've heard that a couple of times today on the BBC.


=========

They would be wrong. It's not dependent on month but rather, strictly speaking, a fine and warmer period after the first killing frost. However, it is a term borrowed from North America (New England, specifically); and perhaps we should return to the notions of Old Wives' summer, St. Luke's summer and St. Martin's summer - the latter two of which are date dependent (October and November respectively).

The AMS glossary summarizes Indian summer thus:

"A period, in mid- or late autumn, of abnormally warm weather, generally clear skies, sunny but hazy days, and cool nights.

In New England, at least one killing frost and preferably a substantial period of normally cool weather must precede this warm spell in order for it to be considered a true "Indian summer." It does not occur every year, and in some years there may be two or three Indian summers. The term is most often heard in the northeastern United States, but its usage extends throughout English- speaking countries. It dates back at least to 1778, but its origin is not certain; the most probable suggestions relate it to the way that the American Indians availed themselves of this extra opportunity to increase their winter stores.

The comparable period in Europe is termed the Old Wives' summer, and, poetically, may be referred to as halcyon days. In England, dependent upon dates of occurrence, such a period may be called St. Martin's summer, St. Luke's summer, and formerly All-hallown summer."

Stephen

If the prerequisites for an indian summer depended on the first frost (of any type let alone a sharp one) in the British Isles, then most years would be inelligible because the first frost is occuring later sometimes well into December in recent years especially the south.

Bruce.

========

Which is why it is an unsatisfactory descriptor for the British Isles but still a fine one for New England :-)

But the definition has popularly become much looser in the UK.

Stephen.

Referred to as First Nation in Canada.

--
Steve R.
Swansea

"Stephen Davenport" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 11:52:20 AM UTC-4, xmetman wrote:
On Tuesday, 29 September 2015 16:32:30 UTC+1, Stephen Davenport wrote:
On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 9:14:43 AM UTC-4, xmetman wrote:
This is the fifth sunny dry day in a row in mid-Devon but it's not an
Indian Summer, because according to the BBC Weather presenters "Indian
summers don't occur in September", and I've heard that a couple of
times today on the BBC.


=========

They would be wrong. It's not dependent on month but rather, strictly
speaking, a fine and warmer period after the first killing frost.
However, it is a term borrowed from North America (New England,
specifically); and perhaps we should return to the notions of Old
Wives' summer, St. Luke's summer and St. Martin's summer - the latter
two of which are date dependent (October and November respectively).

The AMS glossary summarizes Indian summer thus:

"A period, in mid- or late autumn, of abnormally warm weather, generally
clear skies, sunny but hazy days, and cool nights.

In New England, at least one killing frost and preferably a substantial
period of normally cool weather must precede this warm spell in order
for it to be considered a true "Indian summer." It does not occur every
year, and in some years there may be two or three Indian summers. The
term is most often heard in the northeastern United States, but its
usage extends throughout English- speaking countries. It dates back at
least to 1778, but its origin is not certain; the most probable
suggestions relate it to the way that the American Indians availed
themselves of this extra opportunity to increase their winter stores.

The comparable period in Europe is termed the Old Wives' summer, and,
poetically, may be referred to as halcyon days. In England, dependent
upon dates of occurrence, such a period may be called St. Martin's
summer, St. Luke's summer, and formerly All-hallown summer."

Stephen

If the prerequisites for an indian summer depended on the first frost (of
any type let alone a sharp one) in the British Isles, then most years
would be inelligible because the first frost is occuring later sometimes
well into December in recent years especially the south.

Bruce.

========

Which is why it is an unsatisfactory descriptor for the British Isles but
still a fine one for New England :-)

But the definition has popularly become much looser in the UK.
=====================

I just wish we give up the stupid notion altogether. Old wives summers,
indian summers, ... who cares, it's weather, it doesn't need a label.

Will
--
http://www.lyneside.demon.co.uk/Hayt...antage_Pro.htm
Will Hand (Haytor, Devon, 1017 feet asl)
---------------------------------------------

On 01/10/2015 08:38, Eskimo Will wrote:

"Stephen Davenport" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 11:52:20 AM UTC-4, xmetman wrote:
On Tuesday, 29 September 2015 16:32:30 UTC+1, Stephen Davenport wrote:
On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 9:14:43 AM UTC-4, xmetman wrote:
This is the fifth sunny dry day in a row in mid-Devon but it's not
an Indian Summer, because according to the BBC Weather presenters
"Indian summers don't occur in September", and I've heard that a
couple of times today on the BBC.


=========

They would be wrong. It's not dependent on month but rather,
strictly speaking, a fine and warmer period after the first killing
frost. However, it is a term borrowed from North America (New
England, specifically); and perhaps we should return to the notions
of Old Wives' summer, St. Luke's summer and St. Martin's summer -
the latter two of which are date dependent (October and November
respectively).

The AMS glossary summarizes Indian summer thus:

"A period, in mid- or late autumn, of abnormally warm weather,
generally clear skies, sunny but hazy days, and cool nights.

In New England, at least one killing frost and preferably a
substantial period of normally cool weather must precede this warm
spell in order for it to be considered a true "Indian summer." It
does not occur every year, and in some years there may be two or
three Indian summers. The term is most often heard in the
northeastern United States, but its usage extends throughout
English- speaking countries. It dates back at least to 1778, but its
origin is not certain; the most probable suggestions relate it to
the way that the American Indians availed themselves of this extra
opportunity to increase their winter stores.

The comparable period in Europe is termed the Old Wives' summer,
and, poetically, may be referred to as halcyon days. In England,
dependent upon dates of occurrence, such a period may be called St.
Martin's summer, St. Luke's summer, and formerly All-hallown summer."

Stephen

If the prerequisites for an indian summer depended on the first frost
(of any type let alone a sharp one) in the British Isles, then most
years would be inelligible because the first frost is occuring later
sometimes well into December in recent years especially the south.

Bruce.

========

Which is why it is an unsatisfactory descriptor for the British Isles
but still a fine one for New England :-)

But the definition has popularly become much looser in the UK.
=====================

I just wish we give up the stupid notion altogether. Old wives summers,
indian summers, ... who cares, it's weather, it doesn't need a label.

Will

Hippy talk nothing needs a label, lets go back to stone age man grunting.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Thursday, 1 October 2015 08:38:48 UTC+1, wrote:
"Stephen Davenport" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 11:52:20 AM UTC-4, xmetman wrote:
On Tuesday, 29 September 2015 16:32:30 UTC+1, Stephen Davenport wrote:
On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 9:14:43 AM UTC-4, xmetman wrote:
This is the fifth sunny dry day in a row in mid-Devon but it's not an
Indian Summer, because according to the BBC Weather presenters "Indian
summers don't occur in September", and I've heard that a couple of
times today on the BBC.


=========

They would be wrong. It's not dependent on month but rather, strictly
speaking, a fine and warmer period after the first killing frost.
However, it is a term borrowed from North America (New England,
specifically); and perhaps we should return to the notions of Old
Wives' summer, St. Luke's summer and St. Martin's summer - the latter
two of which are date dependent (October and November respectively).

The AMS glossary summarizes Indian summer thus:

"A period, in mid- or late autumn, of abnormally warm weather, generally
clear skies, sunny but hazy days, and cool nights.

In New England, at least one killing frost and preferably a substantial
period of normally cool weather must precede this warm spell in order
for it to be considered a true "Indian summer." It does not occur every
year, and in some years there may be two or three Indian summers. The
term is most often heard in the northeastern United States, but its
usage extends throughout English- speaking countries. It dates back at
least to 1778, but its origin is not certain; the most probable
suggestions relate it to the way that the American Indians availed
themselves of this extra opportunity to increase their winter stores.

The comparable period in Europe is termed the Old Wives' summer, and,
poetically, may be referred to as halcyon days. In England, dependent
upon dates of occurrence, such a period may be called St. Martin's
summer, St. Luke's summer, and formerly All-hallown summer."

Stephen

If the prerequisites for an indian summer depended on the first frost (of
any type let alone a sharp one) in the British Isles, then most years
would be inelligible because the first frost is occuring later sometimes
well into December in recent years especially the south.

Bruce.

========

Which is why it is an unsatisfactory descriptor for the British Isles but
still a fine one for New England :-)

But the definition has popularly become much looser in the UK.
=====================

I just wish we give up the stupid notion altogether. Old wives summers,
indian summers, ... who cares, it's weather, it doesn't need a label.

Will
--
http://www.lyneside.demon.co.uk/Hayt...antage_Pro.htm
Will Hand (Haytor, Devon, 1017 feet asl)
---------------------------------------------

Here's another example of another "label" that will probably feature quite widely in the coming months:

"A sudden stratospheric warming (SSW) is an event where the polar vortex of westerly winds in the winter hemisphere slows down or even reverses direction over the course of a few days. The change is accompanied by a rise of stratospheric temperature by several tens of kelvins"

But who cares it's just "weather" (albeit a bit more 21st than 18th century in origin)!

"xmetman" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 1 October 2015 08:38:48 UTC+1,
wrote:
"Stephen Davenport" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 11:52:20 AM UTC-4, xmetman wrote:
On Tuesday, 29 September 2015 16:32:30 UTC+1, Stephen Davenport wrote:
On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 9:14:43 AM UTC-4, xmetman wrote:
This is the fifth sunny dry day in a row in mid-Devon but it's not
an
Indian Summer, because according to the BBC Weather presenters
"Indian
summers don't occur in September", and I've heard that a couple of
times today on the BBC.


=========

They would be wrong. It's not dependent on month but rather, strictly
speaking, a fine and warmer period after the first killing frost.
However, it is a term borrowed from North America (New England,
specifically); and perhaps we should return to the notions of Old
Wives' summer, St. Luke's summer and St. Martin's summer - the latter
two of which are date dependent (October and November respectively).

The AMS glossary summarizes Indian summer thus:

"A period, in mid- or late autumn, of abnormally warm weather,
generally
clear skies, sunny but hazy days, and cool nights.

In New England, at least one killing frost and preferably a
substantial
period of normally cool weather must precede this warm spell in order
for it to be considered a true "Indian summer." It does not occur
every
year, and in some years there may be two or three Indian summers. The
term is most often heard in the northeastern United States, but its
usage extends throughout English- speaking countries. It dates back at
least to 1778, but its origin is not certain; the most probable
suggestions relate it to the way that the American Indians availed
themselves of this extra opportunity to increase their winter stores.

The comparable period in Europe is termed the Old Wives' summer, and,
poetically, may be referred to as halcyon days. In England, dependent
upon dates of occurrence, such a period may be called St. Martin's
summer, St. Luke's summer, and formerly All-hallown summer."

Stephen

If the prerequisites for an indian summer depended on the first frost
(of
any type let alone a sharp one) in the British Isles, then most years
would be inelligible because the first frost is occuring later sometimes
well into December in recent years especially the south.

Bruce.

========

Which is why it is an unsatisfactory descriptor for the British Isles but
still a fine one for New England :-)

But the definition has popularly become much looser in the UK.
=====================

I just wish we give up the stupid notion altogether. Old wives summers,
indian summers, ... who cares, it's weather, it doesn't need a label.


Here's another example of another "label" that will probably feature quite
widely in the coming months:

"A sudden stratospheric warming (SSW) is an event where the polar vortex of
westerly winds in the winter hemisphere slows down or even reverses
direction over the course of a few days. The change is accompanied by a rise
of stratospheric temperature by several tens of kelvins"

But who cares it's just "weather" (albeit a bit more 21st than 18th century
in origin)!
=================

Enough of the stupid sarcasm Bruce, it does you no favours. SSW is not a
label but a scientific descriptive term for a phenomenon that has
implications for the general circulation. "Indian" summer and "Old wives"
summer mean nothing scientifically and indeed, are not even understood, as
indicated on here. No blog today?

Will
--
http://www.lyneside.demon.co.uk/Hayt...antage_Pro.htm
Will Hand (Haytor, Devon, 1017 feet asl)
---------------------------------------------

On 29/09/15 14:14, xmetman wrote:
This is the fifth sunny dry day in a row in mid-Devon but it's not an
Indian Summer

No, it's good harvesting weather.
For the past three weeks or so, the combined harvester and threshing
machines of Aberdeenshire have been busily gathering in the barley (and
still are) so that the softy southerners will have something to drink
for the coming year.

After the summer comes the harvest. After the harvest comes the autumn
and the leaves fall from the trees. After the autumn comes the finest
Scotch whisky to keep you warm until spring when the barley starts to
grow again.

Reminds me - need to buy some more barley flour for the baking season.


--
AS
pour encourager les autres

On Thursday, 1 October 2015 14:55:09 UTC+1, Asha Santon wrote:
On 29/09/15 14:14, xmetman wrote:
This is the fifth sunny dry day in a row in mid-Devon but it's not an
Indian Summer

No, it's good harvesting weather.
For the past three weeks or so, the combined harvester and threshing
machines of Aberdeenshire have been busily gathering in the barley (and
still are) so that the softy southerners will have something to drink
for the coming year.

After the summer comes the harvest. After the harvest comes the autumn
and the leaves fall from the trees. After the autumn comes the finest
Scotch whisky to keep you warm until spring when the barley starts to
grow again.

Reminds me - need to buy some more barley flour for the baking season.


--
AS
pour encourager les autres

Booze-stuff is produced in other parts of the UK as well, you know. The hop fields of Kent give your "heavy" a nice flavour. You probably don't drink heavy. Heavily? Would I be so rude?

Tudor Hughes, Warlingham, Surrey.

On Thursday, 1 October 2015 14:55:09 UTC+1, Asha Santon wrote:
On 29/09/15 14:14, xmetman wrote:
This is the fifth sunny dry day in a row in mid-Devon but it's not an
Indian Summer

No, it's good harvesting weather.
For the past three weeks or so, the combined harvester and threshing
machines of Aberdeenshire have been busily gathering in the barley (and
still are) so that the softy southerners will have something to drink
for the coming year.

After the summer comes the harvest. After the harvest comes the autumn
and the leaves fall from the trees. After the autumn comes the finest
Scotch whisky to keep you warm until spring when the barley starts to
grow again.

Reminds me - need to buy some more barley flour for the baking season.


--
AS
pour encourager les autres

The "baking season", never heard that term before. Now half-baked and you're talking.