In S England, there always seems to be a date when it can be said
"autumn has arrived". This date varies from one year to the next of
course, but by remarkably little. (a week perhaps?). The onset of
Autumn, unlike other seasons, always seems clearly defined.

In 2004 it can probably be said that Autumn began on 10 September -
bang down the middle of the range of dates as well as I can remember.

Any comments?

Jack

"Jack Harrison" wrote in message
m...
In S England, there always seems to be a date when it can be said
"autumn has arrived". This date varies from one year to the next of
course, but by remarkably little. (a week perhaps?). The onset of
Autumn, unlike other seasons, always seems clearly defined.

In 2004 it can probably be said that Autumn began on 10 September -
bang down the middle of the range of dates as well as I can remember.


.... I know what you mean, though for me just yet, I can't agree *for
here* (Bracknell): it may be slightly different where you are. My
reasoning is ... trying to put my thoughts in some order:-

1. Autumn for me means that the evenings *quickly* turn chilly and damp.
That hasn't yet happened - even last night, the overall minimum is going
to be around 10degC, still circa 1degC above the whole-month average for
September, and on your date (10th) it was 13.4 and yesterday morning 15!
Evenings are still warm enough to potter about in shorts / tee shirt
even with a bit of wind running (as last night). The only reason we
closed the upstairs windows last night (another sign of autumn) was that
the wind was rather gusty from the 'wrong' direction to wrench them wide
open!

2. The leaves are only just turning - and that doesn't look like
'standard' autumnal turn either, but more drought stress (remember, we
haven't had the rainfall other parts of the country have had). The vast
majority of leaves are full (though deep) green, which doesn't suggest
autumn to me. I suspect though that within 7 days, this facet will
change dramatically.

3. The first 'classic' autumn morning for me is a misty, moisty & CHILLY
morning - we've had misty (indeed foggy) early mornings (cleared well
before 07Z), with HIGH dew point air. This isn't autumnal weather - my
autumn mist/fog should be around either close to, or at 09Z with
temperatures down around 5 or 6 degC.

I agree though that we've had a major change of type on/around your
date, though we get these at all sorts of times within a 'classic'
season. As you say, I shall also be interested to see what others think.
I suspect it will be highly personal, and the usual mix between a glass
half empty and one half full ;-)

Martin.

Martin Rowley wrote:

... I know what you mean, though for me just yet, I can't agree *for
here* (Bracknell): it may be slightly different where you are. My
reasoning is ... trying to put my thoughts in some order:-

No autumn yet here either (Canterbury). So far I've recorded only 2.8mm
of rain and many days have been predominantly sunny. Yesterday reached a
maximum of 22.4C and a minimum of 15C - indeed the mean temp was only
18.4C yesterday which is the highest so far this month.

All that might change over the next few hours and days, mind, but I
intend to make the most of the sun and warmth!

--
Jonathan Stott
http://www.jstott.me.uk/weather

In article ,
Martin Rowley writes:
2. The leaves are only just turning - and that doesn't look like
'standard' autumnal turn either, but more drought stress (remember, we
haven't had the rainfall other parts of the country have had). The vast
majority of leaves are full (though deep) green, which doesn't suggest
autumn to me. I suspect though that within 7 days, this facet will
change dramatically.

If you are going to use this measure, wouldn't it mean that in many
recent years autumn wouldn't have begun in the south till the second
half of October?
--
John Hall "Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always
pays off now." Anon

"John Hall" wrote in message
...

If you are going to use this measure, wouldn't it mean that in many
recent years autumn wouldn't have begun in the south till the second
half of October?

.... yes. In recent years (compared to when I was a nipper), I have had
difficulty in regarding September as an 'autumnal' month.

Martin.

Martin Rowley wrote:
"John Hall" wrote in message
...

If you are going to use this measure, wouldn't it mean that in many
recent years autumn wouldn't have begun in the south till the second
half of October?


.... yes. In recent years (compared to when I was a nipper), I have had
difficulty in regarding September as an 'autumnal' month.


Don't have to go back to when you (or I) were a nipper for a different
kind of September. 1986 I think it was when we had 15 ground and 7 air
frosts here in Bracknell. I think there were as many, if not more,
frosts that September than in the following three months together.

Graham

Martin Rowley wrote:
"John Hall" wrote in message
...

If you are going to use this measure, wouldn't it mean that in many
recent years autumn wouldn't have begun in the south till the second
half of October?


... yes. In recent years (compared to when I was a nipper), I have had
difficulty in regarding September as an 'autumnal' month.

Martin.




I September is like March, June and December, they are very fuzzy
months when it comes to the weather that occurs in them.
For instance September, can be generally a extension of the summer, or
it can be the autumn cum-early or it can be summery, starting off like
summer, but gradually slipping into autumn for the final week.

Of course there is an whole spectrum of what a particular month or
season is like.

It is not good to try and generalise what a particular month or season
is like. Obviously the human brain likes to catagorise so that we can
find some order in the universe we live in. But I think there is not a
stereotypical type September or any month or season come to that matter.

It is all very subjective, and we all have our own stereotypes to what
each month or season is like, and whatever anyone says, will be there
own value judgement what a particular month or season is like, that is
not wrong or right, it is just the way each person sees what a month or
season is like.

Joe
Wolverhampton

Regarding *temperature*, in Kent, or anywhere else South of the Thames,
September is most definately a summer month.
--------------------------------------------------------
"Joe" wrote in message
...


Martin Rowley wrote:
"John Hall" wrote in message
...

If you are going to use this measure, wouldn't it mean that in many
recent years autumn wouldn't have begun in the south till the second
half of October?


... yes. In recent years (compared to when I was a nipper), I have had
difficulty in regarding September as an 'autumnal' month.

Martin.




I September is like March, June and December, they are very fuzzy
months when it comes to the weather that occurs in them.
For instance September, can be generally a extension of the summer, or
it can be the autumn cum-early or it can be summery, starting off like
summer, but gradually slipping into autumn for the final week.

Of course there is an whole spectrum of what a particular month or
season is like.

It is not good to try and generalise what a particular month or season
is like. Obviously the human brain likes to catagorise so that we can
find some order in the universe we live in. But I think there is not a
stereotypical type September or any month or season come to that matter.

It is all very subjective, and we all have our own stereotypes to what
each month or season is like, and whatever anyone says, will be there
own value judgement what a particular month or season is like, that is
not wrong or right, it is just the way each person sees what a month or
season is like.

Joe
Wolverhampton

Jack,
I know what you mean with the more unsettled nature of the weather this week
compared to last - but Autumn for me is when my dahlias turn black, or the
central heating is turned on (by my wife or the kids), I wear socks at home,
and I dont have to water the hanging baskets anymore....
Phil

"Jack Harrison" wrote in message
m...
In S England, there always seems to be a date when it can be said
"autumn has arrived". This date varies from one year to the next
of
course, but by remarkably little. (a week perhaps?). The onset
of
Autumn, unlike other seasons, always seems clearly defined.

In 2004 it can probably be said that Autumn began on 10
September -
bang down the middle of the range of dates as well as I can
remember.

In truth, it's a fits-and-starts job, isn't it ... just like spring?
And I think we're all agreed it varies greatly geographically,
and it's (almost) entirely subjective. I like the measures other
people have mentioned: shutting the upstairs window, wearing
socks again, etc, to which you might add picking up your
first conker, clearing the fallers out of the grass before cutting
it. I'm surprised no-one's mentioned the day the moisture
from overnight rain or dew doesn't disappear from shady
corners, even though it might have been a sunny day. (That's
the day the ground is wet pretty-much continuously until
the next March or April).

I always notice the first chilly night, usually in late-August,
when the air temp drops below, say, 7ºC ... this year it
was September 1 here. But it's an excellent exercise to
try to do this without reference to meteorological or
astronomical (measured) parameters.

Philip Eden