If the economy goes wrong, then maybe your children will have to walk to
school. If the climate goes wrong agriculture will be affected. That means
your children will starve. When the Nile floods failed the Egyptians ate
their children. What will you do when there is no food?

Cheers, Alastair.

"Lawrence" wrote in message
...
Well Col I think the whole rational of moving into the middle east is part
of that. It's recognition that fossil fuels are needed to maintain world
economy. That's my take on it and I have to say begrudgingly that I agree
with it. There is no other way at present. In the past those disillusioned
with this set up would have turned to the left, there is no credible left
left! Communism was vile and awful and ended up the very opposite of what it
set out to be. The laws of economics will prevail for some time yet. It's
neither cruel, greedy, evil or stupid it's the only way it can be, to try
and keep it all going. Can you really see prices held artificially high or
taxation levied on energy usage. I have to say I'm more concerned for my
childrens future where the economy is concerned rather than possible,
potential, maybe's around climate.



"Col" wrote in message
...

"Lawrence" wrote in message
...
I think the problem with the Capitalist mode of production and lets face
it,
its the best humans have had, is that economies need to grow or like a
bicycle they will stall and fall over if momentum is lost. The Kyoto
stuff
is really lots of unknowns. The stakes are the highest ever played for.
Slow down economies and world recession will devastate every thing we've
ever known, were not talking about a few higher prices, we're looking at

war
and terrorism. At the growth rate that exist now, and lets face it even
that's all about keeping your fingers crossed, we have massive
instability.
Wait until slump hits. Humans and all life on this planet has always been
underpinned by fragility. It's only the rapid acceleration of development
since the last ice age that we have certainties in our lives.
To implement Kyoto and cripple people even more with taxation and slump
will
IMHO be far worse than anything that possible warming will do. I think
certain people recognise this and see the dangers that lie ahead. There
is a
great naivety here on the level of "let them eat cake" so therefore I
think
the American government is right to be very cautious.


Implementing Kyoto means cutting greenhouse gases. It doesn't say that
we have to have a massive world recession. let's face it, we are going to
have to develop non-fossil fuel based energy sources *at some point*
simply because they will run out in the next few decades.
Now is the time to start pumping some *serious* money into this.

Col
--
Bolton, Lancashire.
160m asl.
http://www.reddwarfer.btinternet.co.uk
http://www.reddwarfer.btinternet.co....rPictures.html

Jesus, we're here just to 'keep it all going' . Not think about better
world? Nope, just here to keep it all going? For, presumably, a not better
future

"Lawrence" wrote in message
...
Well Col I think the whole rational of moving into the middle east is part
of that. It's recognition that fossil fuels are needed to maintain world
economy. That's my take on it and I have to say begrudgingly that I agree
with it. There is no other way at present. In the past those disillusioned
with this set up would have turned to the left, there is no credible left
left! Communism was vile and awful and ended up the very opposite of what
it
set out to be. The laws of economics will prevail for some time yet. It's
neither cruel, greedy, evil or stupid it's the only way it can be, to try
and keep it all going. Can you really see prices held artificially high or
taxation levied on energy usage. I have to say I'm more concerned for my
childrens future where the economy is concerned rather than possible,
potential, maybe's around climate.



"Col" wrote in message
...

"Lawrence" wrote in message
...
I think the problem with the Capitalist mode of production and lets
face
it,
its the best humans have had, is that economies need to grow or like a
bicycle they will stall and fall over if momentum is lost. The Kyoto
stuff
is really lots of unknowns. The stakes are the highest ever played
for.
Slow down economies and world recession will devastate every thing
we've
ever known, were not talking about a few higher prices, we're looking
at
war
and terrorism. At the growth rate that exist now, and lets face it even
that's all about keeping your fingers crossed, we have massive
instability.
Wait until slump hits. Humans and all life on this planet has always
been
underpinned by fragility. It's only the rapid acceleration of
development
since the last ice age that we have certainties in our lives.
To implement Kyoto and cripple people even more with taxation and slump
will
IMHO be far worse than anything that possible warming will do. I think
certain people recognise this and see the dangers that lie ahead. There
is a
great naivety here on the level of "let them eat cake" so therefore I
think
the American government is right to be very cautious.


Implementing Kyoto means cutting greenhouse gases. It doesn't say that
we have to have a massive world recession. let's face it, we are going
to
have to develop non-fossil fuel based energy sources *at some point*
simply because they will run out in the next few decades.
Now is the time to start pumping some *serious* money into this.

Col
--
Bolton, Lancashire.
160m asl.
http://www.reddwarfer.btinternet.co.uk
http://www.reddwarfer.btinternet.co....rPictures.html

Sir David King is a ideologically led fool. His background is sketchy to say
the least. Of course he was knighted by Tony Blair's Labour party.
I'd rather go with Professor David...no not the David King version but
Professor David Bellamy. He clashed with this man earlier this summer (read
link below)

http://www.globalwarmingissues.com/v...change+science

Of course Sir David King is a luvvie of the Labour Party. thats why they
knighted him.
Alas Professor David Bellamy isn't a knight, no the Labour Party didn't
like him,.
We should remember to keep some perspective, that is that this Labour party
are the shallowist bunch of politicians to walk Mother Earth..






"Alastair McDonald" k wrote
in message ...

"Paul C" wrote in message
...
Did anyone hear John Humphreys' interview with the chief adviser to
George Bush on Global Warming? You'll be glad to know it doesn't exist
- it's all an EU plot.

I certainly felt quite chilled after listening to it.

It seems that you were not alone. Norman Baker MP also heard it.
Here is a follow up to the original broadcast.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/li...t_20041105.ram

BTW Sir David King is a professor in Physical Chemistry. I
can't imagine a better qualification for understanding the effects
of greenhouse gases.

Cheers, Alastair.

In message , Adrian D. Shaw
writes
Felly sgrifennodd
Alastair McDonald :
Here is a follow up to the original broadcast.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/li...enviroment_200
41105.ram

Having listened to both reports, I too find it quite amazing. The only thing
it seems the Americans understand is money.

Since the political will to impose sanctions against countries which pollute
(such as the US) does not appear to be there, I feel my only option is to
stop buying American, and hope that enough people will feel similarly strong
about it to do the same.

I doubt it will do much good. It was scary listening to that paranoid
guy make such unwarranted accusations about the integrity of a famous
British scientist. Boycotting Esso in Europe is one way to make the
point.

The only thing that will make the US take notice is when they cannot buy
dirt cheap oil any more, and that may happen sooner than you think...

I suspect they'd still be producing CFC aerosols
were it not for the consumer.

Sadly not the case. All too many US consumers want their CFCs - there is
even a black market in them. If you ask US consumers they object to
having to pay more for less damaging ozone friendly alternatives.

The reason CFCs were abandoned following the Montreal Protocol is that
even Fluorine chemists want to be able to live safely on the surface of
the Earth. And the chemical industry agreed that the evidence was
compelling.

They even gave an industry medal of merit to the discoverers of the
Antarctic ozone hole (last year?).

Regards,
--
Martin Brown

Martin Brown wrote:

I doubt it will do much good. It was scary listening to that paranoid
guy make such unwarranted accusations about the integrity of a famous
British scientist. Boycotting Esso in Europe is one way to make the point.

Ive discussed that with dh and its something we are willing to do

Sarah

"kiticat" wrote in message
...
Martin Brown wrote:

I doubt it will do much good. It was scary listening to that paranoid
guy make such unwarranted accusations about the integrity of a famous
British scientist. Boycotting Esso in Europe is one way to make the point.

Ive discussed that with dh and its something we are willing to do

Sarah

Greenpeace has already started a campaign against Esso. Here is their web
page.
http://www.stopesso.org
You don't need to be a Greenpeace member to join in.

Cheers, Alastair.

How can you have any faith in Green peace They are hypocrites at their best
and dangerous looney's at their worst. One of their leading members Jenny
Jones happens to be the Deputy leader of the London Assembley. This
wonderful women wants to legalise cannabis, even though there is growing
serious mental health problems associated with this drug and a lifestyle of
certain youth in London and other areas of England that Livingstone, the
Labour party and even the Tories dare not mention. I recently looked at the
Green peace website, it had a split screen there was a large photograph of
a muslim cleric greeting a Hisidic Jew on one side and on the other an image
of Fox hunting in full cry.
The two sentiments being Ahhh... the poor Foxes at the hands of the Evil
privaleged Country Alliance...booo hiss. The other being the respect and
tolerance of ethnic religion. All good sentiments of course.. but alas the
fact was lost on Greenpeace that Hisidic Jews and Muslims carried out the
also cruel practise of Ritual Slaughter here, every day in this country,
this by the way is very cruel and stressfull to the animal. I emailed them
to point this out and hear their views but they never replied but the image
was dropped.

The point I'm making is that I wouldn't trust this motley bunch off shrill
pampered infantiles all living in high affluent societies with baby-sitting
a puppy let alone a child. So why would I trust them on climate!

By the way I speak for myself it would seem that three individuals here
speak for Greenpeace






Here are some links
http://london.greenparty.org.uk/?s=n...f2 c151a50d99


http://www.grandin.com/ritual/rec.ritual.slaughter.html












"Alastair McDonald" k wrote
in message ...

"kiticat" wrote in message
...
Martin Brown wrote:

I doubt it will do much good. It was scary listening to that paranoid
guy make such unwarranted accusations about the integrity of a famous
British scientist. Boycotting Esso in Europe is one way to make the
point.

Ive discussed that with dh and its something we are willing to do

Sarah

Greenpeace has already started a campaign against Esso. Here is their web
page.
http://www.stopesso.org
You don't need to be a Greenpeace member to join in.

Cheers, Alastair.

"Gavin Staples" wrote in message
.. .

Given the fact that the Kyoto protocol was supposed to limit CO2 which is
supposedly a greenhouse gas ...

Are you saying it isn't then ?

and that more than 50 per-cent of the human
population have been exempt, these being China and India. If one is
serious
about limiting CO2 then these countries would have been included.

I hope you are encouraging them to join soon.

It is infantile to suggest that American goods should be boycotted.

Is it ?

China will be using more oil than America by 2010 and more than America
and
the EU put together by 2015.

They might ... but soothsaying aside ...

Do we then say let's boycott Chinese goods and
then see how qucikly we get accused of racism.

Possibly - boycotting Chinese goods is no more racist than boycotting
American goods (and in fact, neither can be considered racist if they are
being boycotted for a reason other than the fact that they are Chinese,
American, etc.).

When India are added to the equation by 2015 China and India will be
using 3 times more oil than the US.

They might ... but soothsaying aside ...

Kyoto is dead in the water. It was never meant to be anything else.

Really? I imagine the learned persons involved in bringing it about, both
organisational and scientific, must be delighted to know that their efforts
were always meant to be pointless. I cannot think why they did not ask you
first before wasting all that time.

Yes I can ...

Gianna

Just to illustrate my points about The Green party. I did several searches
on their site.

1) Fox Hunting 14 hits: all the same barbarous theme.
2)Ritual Slaugher 0 hits
3)Halal meat 0 hits
4)Kosher meat 0 hits
5)Abattoirs 11 hits: all of course expounding their cruelty


I put in Co2 pollutant and got 8 hits. I wonder if the plants know this

"Adrian D. Shaw" wrote in message
...
Felly sgrifennodd
Alastair McDonald :
Here is a follow up to the original broadcast.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/li...roment_2004110
5.ram

Having listened to both reports, I too find it quite amazing. The only
thing
it seems the Americans understand is money.

Since the political will to impose sanctions against countries which
pollute
(such as the US) does not appear to be there, I feel my only option is to
stop buying American, and hope that enough people will feel similarly
strong
about it to do the same. I suspect they'd still be producing CFC aerosols
were it not for the consumer.

There seems little else we can do!

Adrian (using a non-American computer with non-American software)

--
Adrian Shaw ais@
Adran Cyfrifiadureg, Prifysgol Cymru, aber.
Aberystwyth, Ceredigion, Cymru ac.
http://users.aber.ac.uk/ais uk



Given the fact that the Kyoto protocol was supposed to limit CO2 which is
supposedly a greenhouse gas and that more than 50 per-cent of the human
population have been exempt, these being China and India. If one is serious
about limiting CO2 then these countries would have been included.
It is infantile to suggest that American goods should be boycotted.
China will be using more oil than America by 2010 and more than America and
the EU put together by 2015. Do we then say let's boycott Chinese goods and
then see how qucikly we get accused of racism.
When India are added to the equation by 2015 China and India will be
using 3 times more oil than the US.
Kyoto is dead in the water. It was never meant to be anything else.