You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
 

"Michael Mcneil" wrote in message
news:8fa45de5f00a54541bbe3c732448831c.45219@mygate .mailgate.org...

If your theory holds water then there will be records of it now that the
Russians and the Yanks have stopped playing silly buggers up there.

Don't you mean if my theory holds salt :-? Unfortunately, now the
Yanks and Ruskies have stopped playing wargames up there, no one
is around to take the measurements needed. Polar explorers, paddling
around on ice floes, are not much use when it comes to getting temperature-
salinity profiles of the ocean.

One problem with your idea is that there will be a layer of melt
insulating the icefrom the incresed salt which by the way had better
sink pdq before it mixes.

The Arctic Ocean is a basin with shallow outflows at the Bering Strait, and
into the North Atlantic. As it fills up with warm salty water, the fresh
water
above spills out.

The other alternative is that while the sea ice leaves at a rate of
knots on the surface increased salt water leaves below it, maintaining
the status.

Needless to say my theory fits a failsafe model that shouts cyclical and
explains the El Nino, La Nina events. (And my religious mania.)

El Nino and La Nina have a four to seven year cycle. The Arctic ice has
been melting for nearly 40 years. Moreover, most the galciers throughout
the world are in retreat. "Global warming knows no borders. Montana's
majestic Glacier National Park will soon need a new name. When founded
in 1910, it had 150 glaciers. Today it has fewer than 50 and U.S. Geological
Survey experts expect the park's last glacier to trickle away in 30 years."
See
http://scoop.agonist.org/story/2004/10/13/9523/9428


It would also fit in with increased CO2 and other "pollutant" gasses in
times past when there were high points in these cycles. (If it could
ever be proven there were such polution in the past.)

"Environmental changes, which generally come in geological time, should
not be noticeable in a human life span ... but they are."
http://scoop.agonist.org/story/2004/10/13/9523/9428

HTH,

Cheers, Alastair.

You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
 

"Alastair McDonald" k wrote
in message ...

"Michael Mcneil" wrote in message
news:8fa45de5f00a54541bbe3c732448831c.45219@mygate .mailgate.org...

If your theory holds water then there will be records of it now that the
Russians and the Yanks have stopped playing silly buggers up there.

Don't you mean if my theory holds salt :-? Unfortunately, now the
Yanks and Ruskies have stopped playing wargames up there, no one
is around to take the measurements needed. Polar explorers, paddling
around on ice floes, are not much use when it comes to getting
temperature-
salinity profiles of the ocean.

One problem with your idea is that there will be a layer of melt
insulating the icefrom the incresed salt which by the way had better
sink pdq before it mixes.

The Arctic Ocean is a basin with shallow outflows at the Bering Strait,
and
into the North Atlantic. As it fills up with warm salty water, the fresh
water
above spills out.

The other alternative is that while the sea ice leaves at a rate of
knots on the surface increased salt water leaves below it, maintaining
the status.

Needless to say my theory fits a failsafe model that shouts cyclical and
explains the El Nino, La Nina events. (And my religious mania.)

El Nino and La Nina have a four to seven year cycle. The Arctic ice has
been melting for nearly 40 years. Moreover, most the galciers throughout
the world are in retreat. "Global warming knows no borders. Montana's
majestic Glacier National Park will soon need a new name. When founded
in 1910, it had 150 glaciers. Today it has fewer than 50 and U.S.
Geological
Survey experts expect the park's last glacier to trickle away in 30
years."
See
http://scoop.agonist.org/story/2004/10/13/9523/9428


It would also fit in with increased CO2 and other "pollutant" gasses in
times past when there were high points in these cycles. (If it could
ever be proven there were such polution in the past.)

"Environmental changes, which generally come in geological time, should
not be noticeable in a human life span ... but they are."
http://scoop.agonist.org/story/2004/10/13/9523/9428

HTH,

Cheers, Alastair.



How many glaciers were there in Montana's majestic Glacier National Park in
the early middle ages warming when the temperature of the globe was 2C
warmer than it is now? This was a time when it was possible to grow maize
in the UK, when the Archbishop of Canterbury had a fig orchard of viable
figs, and when it was possible to grow grapes in Scotland.
We don't hear much about this. Shame professor Hubert Lamb isn't around.

Gavin.

You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
 

wrote in message
...


It would also fit in with increased CO2 and other "pollutant" gasses in
times past when there were high points in these cycles.


Michael since when has Co2 become a pollutant. If you are correct the
sooner
we eradicate Co2 from the atmosphere the better!!!!

Didn't like vegetattion much anyway.



If Co2 is a pollutant then heaven knows what will happen to the vegetation.
If Co2 is a pollutant then we had better kill off a few humans then. After
all what do us humans breath out every few seconds, Co2 of course.

Gavin.

You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
 

"Gavin Staples" wrote in message
...

"Alastair McDonald" k wrote
in message ...

"Michael Mcneil" wrote in message
news:8fa45de5f00a54541bbe3c732448831c.45219@mygate .mailgate.org...

If your theory holds water then there will be records of it now that the
Russians and the Yanks have stopped playing silly buggers up there.

Don't you mean if my theory holds salt :-? Unfortunately, now the
Yanks and Ruskies have stopped playing wargames up there, no one
is around to take the measurements needed. Polar explorers, paddling
around on ice floes, are not much use when it comes to getting
temperature-
salinity profiles of the ocean.

One problem with your idea is that there will be a layer of melt
insulating the icefrom the incresed salt which by the way had better
sink pdq before it mixes.

The Arctic Ocean is a basin with shallow outflows at the Bering Strait,
and
into the North Atlantic. As it fills up with warm salty water, the fresh
water
above spills out.

The other alternative is that while the sea ice leaves at a rate of
knots on the surface increased salt water leaves below it, maintaining
the status.

Needless to say my theory fits a failsafe model that shouts cyclical and
explains the El Nino, La Nina events. (And my religious mania.)

El Nino and La Nina have a four to seven year cycle. The Arctic ice has
been melting for nearly 40 years. Moreover, most the galciers throughout
the world are in retreat. "Global warming knows no borders. Montana's
majestic Glacier National Park will soon need a new name. When founded
in 1910, it had 150 glaciers. Today it has fewer than 50 and U.S.
Geological
Survey experts expect the park's last glacier to trickle away in 30
years."
See
http://scoop.agonist.org/story/2004/10/13/9523/9428


It would also fit in with increased CO2 and other "pollutant" gasses in
times past when there were high points in these cycles. (If it could
ever be proven there were such polution in the past.)

"Environmental changes, which generally come in geological time, should
not be noticeable in a human life span ... but they are."
http://scoop.agonist.org/story/2004/10/13/9523/9428

HTH,

Cheers, Alastair.



How many glaciers were there in Montana's majestic Glacier National Park in
the early middle ages warming when the temperature of the globe was 2C
warmer than it is now?

At least 150. It takes longer than 800 years to create a glacier.

This was a time when it was possible to grow maize
in the UK, when the Archbishop of Canterbury had a fig orchard of viable
figs, and when it was possible to grow grapes in Scotland.

It is now.

We don't hear much about this.

Perhaps you don't, but I hear it all the time from sceptics spouting off.

Shame professor Hubert Lamb isn't around.

Yes, he might put you straight.

Cheers, Alastair.

You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
 

"Gavin Staples" wrote in message
...

How many glaciers were there in Montana's majestic Glacier National Park
in the early middle ages warming when the temperature of the globe was 2C
warmer than it is now?

This was a time when it was possible to grow maize in the UK,
^^^^^^^

LOL, Gavin. Can I gently suggest you stop digging?
You're far enough down now.

pe

You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
 

"Philip Eden" philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom wrote in message



"Gavin Staples" wrote in message
...

How many glaciers were there in Montana's majestic Glacier National Park
in the early middle ages warming when the temperature of the globe was 2C
warmer than it is now?

This was a time when it was possible to grow maize in the UK,
^^^^^^^

LOL, Gavin. Can I gently suggest you stop digging?
You're far enough down now.


It's interesting that the cycle should be highlighted in the Americas.

In the US or A especially, the sharp change of culture that started with
the widespread use of gunpowder in the 1830's eradicating by the 20th
century the huge herds of bison, also upset the top of the chain, wolves
and coyotes.

It has only recently been realised that the destruction of species has
the knock on effect of eradicating tree species. What happens is that
wolves and coyotes rely on small rodents as their staple. These and
larger browsers are free to feed on and eradicate tree seedlings and
saplings.

Whole ranges of species (I'm not sure of the definition of species
but I believe the term genus is the one I am after here) had been hit
since early Victorian times in the North American continent.

Coupled with that was the widespread drainage of wetlands that began in
the time of George Washington.

So now that the farm has changed we are blaming the tractor?

Here in Britain a form of farming that relied for centuries on hedges
and ditches every three or four acres has by and large been eradicated.
So now the use of the London flood barrier "has shshshshot up" (ITV
presenter just now -emphasising the term for the sake of glow-ball
warmers.)

And who are we going to blame for that? People who persist in exhaling?

Vegetarians?




--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
 

"Gavin Staples" "Alastair McDonald" "Michael Mcneil" wrote in message
................
(Lummy -what a trio!)

If your theory holds water then there will be records of it now that the
Russians and the Yanks have stopped playing silly buggers up there.

Don't you mean if my theory holds salt :-? Unfortunately, now the
Yanks and Ruskies have stopped playing wargames up there, no one
is around to take the measurements needed. Polar explorers, paddling
around on ice floes, are not much use when it comes to getting
temperature-
salinity profiles of the ocean.

etc,etc,etc....................................... ..
actually there are quite a lot of people taking measurements
,see eg-
http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/sipo/

http://rdoas-sig.amtp.cam.ac.uk/Public/PandP.html


--
regards,
David

add '17' to Waghorne to reply

You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
 

"Waghorn" wrote in message
...

"Gavin Staples" "Alastair McDonald" "Michael Mcneil" wrote in message
...............
(Lummy -what a trio!)

If your theory holds water then there will be records of it now that the
Russians and the Yanks have stopped playing silly buggers up there.

Don't you mean if my theory holds salt :-? Unfortunately, now the
Yanks and Ruskies have stopped playing wargames up there, no one
is around to take the measurements needed. Polar explorers, paddling
around on ice floes, are not much use when it comes to getting
temperature-
salinity profiles of the ocean.

etc,etc,etc....................................... ..

So you are rushing in to defend Gavin and Michael :-? What does that
say about your scientific credentials :-? I can't say I have ever thought
of Philip Eden as an angel before grin

actually there are quite a lot of people taking measurements
,see eg-
http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/sipo/

http://rdoas-sig.amtp.cam.ac.uk/Public/PandP.html

Two is not a lot by anyone's standards. Moreover you second page is
about the Greenland Sea. That is not an area covered by multi-year Arctic
sea ice, so we are only left with one - Peter Wadham's site. At the recent
COAPEC meeting he announced that he had obtained measurements
from a Royal Navy submarine at £250,000 but his request for funding to
process the data was turned down - so even though he is looking he is
not publishing.

The main source of data at the North Pole was from the Russian floating
ice stations. That ended when the USSR broke up. It was resumed last
year, but if you recall that station floated away and the scientists on the
floe had to be rescued before they drowned.

Cheers, Alastair.

You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
 

"Alastair McDonald" So you are rushing in to defend Gavin and Michael :-?
What does that
say about your scientific credentials :-? I can't say I have ever thought
of Philip Eden as an angel before grin


An angel as well as three 'wise men' you seem to have drifted off into
theology ,

--
regards,
David

add '17' to Waghorne to reply

You have to laugh. Even if it isn't funny?
 

"Waghorn" wrote in message


"Alastair McDonald" So you are rushing in to defend Gavin and Michael :-?
What does that
say about your scientific credentials :-? I can't say I have ever thought
of Philip Eden as an angel before grin

An angel as well as three 'wise men' you seem to have drifted off into
theology ,

Actually, old boy, the term "Angel" means "messenger" not "guardian".

To his credit Alistair can be seen as a guardian. But all of us
interested in the earth sciences depend on "messenger" services, be they
satellites or seismographs; ISPs or postal services; weather stations or
gut feelings.

As for theology, looking after the earth is built into human nature. It
is those divorced from an hands on control of the planet -or any part
thereof who in the name of progress and productivity do the most damage
to it.

And as for scientists:

Who get given Nobel prizes?

Is it dirt farmers or the people who invent poisons such as agent orange
and tabun?

Is it the people like Fritz Haber who gave the world the nitrates that
produced the Green Revolution and tabun or Alfred Nobel the man who
gave us dynamite and whose company now produce land-mines and machine
guns among other messengers of death?

Or is it people like Jacquie Katona, a spokesman for the originals who
live in Kakadu National Park, one of the last original inhabitants to
live in the way their ancestors have done, untouched by scientists or
accountants.

Now, for those of you who know no better; Kakadu is a region of
Australia where the land is burned out every year. The natives do this
to promote the new growth and to hunt the wildlife. Soon they will be
prevented from doing this by scientists and environmentalists.

Scientists on the other hand, are not an indigenous people. Their ranks
are made up out of the minority of those who, divorced from the sharp
end of country life, have learned how to fill out forms correctly.

They have been able to maintain that method of eking a living, based not
unlike the principles of modern agriculture, on a process of govenment
handouts for that purpose.

The fundamental difference between these two groups (in this particular
area) is not a matter of citizenship but one of what to do with uranium.

Whilst Fritz and Albert were undoubtedly scientists )and Angels of
Death,) what is Jacqui?

By an accident of timing she can consider herself a citizen. Her parents
were not.

Is she an Angel? A scientist?

She knows better than most, what is going on around her;

....in every sense of the word.



--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG