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You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
Well an Arctic expedition which set out to prove global that warming is
going to kill us all was called of due to weather and ice conditions. well the reasons are named as "slushy ice, open water, drifting and yes to underline it all......deep snow, too deep to navigate. Call me cynical but I thought they went prepared for melt condition ? it was a mission to prove global warning-yet snow not rain stopped them in their erm.. tracks. " One World Expedition stops short of first time summer crossing of Arctic Ocean; explorers vow to continue work on global warming GRAND MARAIS, MINN., June 3 ---Explorers Lonnie Dupre and Eric Larsen were forced today to cut short the first attempt to cross the Arctic Ocean in summer, but have vowed to continue campaigning for action on human-caused global climate change, including work with expedition partner Greenpeace. Unexpected weather conditions, including unusually deep snow and a steady southerly ice drift, led the explorers to call for an airlift. Since leaving Cape Arctichesky on Siberia's coast May 10, the team traveled 150 miles but made just 45 miles northward toward the North Pole, unable to maintain the pace required to complete the trip before winter storms arrive. They had only a few days of conditions where they could use their skis, and even then could not make the daily distance required by the expedition plan. Dangerous broken ice - fields of small pans and brash ice joined by thin layers of sea ice which would not support the team's weight, forcing them to swim and break their way forward - constantly moved in a gyroscopic action, erasing their hard-won progress each night as they slept. Snow fell most days, building up a deep layer through which travel was extremely difficult and slow. Daily temperatures spiked above freezing, causing the snow to turn to slush. The explorers plan to meet with Arctic climate experts to share their firsthand experience and observations, and to see if conditions this year were out of the ordinary. " Go to their site look at at the sponsers.http://www.oneworldexpedition.com/pressroom.html I think its a case of "We will have global warming. We will!" |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
well what did they expect to encounter ?!
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You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Shayne" wrote in message ... well what did they expect to encounter ?! Solid ice with flat areas and pressure ridges. The ice had melted even more than they expected, and they ended up trying to swim to the pole! They are not the only ones caught out by melting ice this year. Ann Daniels had similar problems and she was lifted off, but she blamed the Russian bureaucracy. The same thing happened to the "Last Degree Expedition" See; http://www.members.shaw.ca/polarchallenge/ They say "As for other Arctic travellers this year, as I write, no other teams have completed an entire last degree to the Pole on foot or ski." That seems to have been prophetic. In August (much later in the melt season) 1958 the American submarine USS Nautilus was the first to cross the Arctic. They could find nowhere to surface at the pole because the ice was so thick, much to their disappointment. August five years ago it was reported that the pole was ice free. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/888235.stm The Arctic ice is melting rapidly, and no amount of sneering at the reports will prevent it getting very much worse. Cheers, Alastair. |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
Shayne wrote: well what did they expect to encounter ?! Expect or Want? Had they stayed at home they could have listened to me instead: Another clue in the disposition of oceanic/meteorological oscillations seems to be a drought in the UK (and prehaps all of NW Europe?) that will -this coming winter, ensure that there is not a flux of low salt inflow from the Baltic into the Arctic. In which case the whole scheme of the global conveyor themohaline circuit is to undergo a massive rethink. 200 year cycle, my arse. |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
I was under the impression that the summer season last year at the pole was
both later and shorter than normal. Shaun Pudwell. "Alastair McDonald" k wrote in message ... "Shayne" wrote in message ... well what did they expect to encounter ?! Solid ice with flat areas and pressure ridges. The ice had melted even more than they expected, and they ended up trying to swim to the pole! They are not the only ones caught out by melting ice this year. Ann Daniels had similar problems and she was lifted off, but she blamed the Russian bureaucracy. The same thing happened to the "Last Degree Expedition" See; http://www.members.shaw.ca/polarchallenge/ They say "As for other Arctic travellers this year, as I write, no other teams have completed an entire last degree to the Pole on foot or ski." That seems to have been prophetic. In August (much later in the melt season) 1958 the American submarine USS Nautilus was the first to cross the Arctic. They could find nowhere to surface at the pole because the ice was so thick, much to their disappointment. August five years ago it was reported that the pole was ice free. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/888235.stm The Arctic ice is melting rapidly, and no amount of sneering at the reports will prevent it getting very much worse. Cheers, Alastair. |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Shaun Pudwell" wrote in message
I was under the impression that the summer season last year at the pole was both later and shorter than normal. So what mechanism has caused the conditions or doesn't anyone know? (Besides me, that is.) -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
Presumably you are referring to this report;
http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/essay_untersteiner3.html It is describing surface conditions but the melting is probably due to warmer/saltier sea water which is melting the ice from below. As I recall, one of the explorers who was rescued after reaching the north pole last year reckoned that he could well have been the last person to reach it on foot, and that seems to be coming true :-(. Cheers, Alastair. "Shaun Pudwell" wrote in message ... I was under the impression that the summer season last year at the pole was both later and shorter than normal. Shaun Pudwell. "Alastair McDonald" k wrote in message ... "Shayne" wrote in message ... well what did they expect to encounter ?! Solid ice with flat areas and pressure ridges. The ice had melted even more than they expected, and they ended up trying to swim to the pole! They are not the only ones caught out by melting ice this year. Ann Daniels had similar problems and she was lifted off, but she blamed the Russian bureaucracy. The same thing happened to the "Last Degree Expedition" See; http://www.members.shaw.ca/polarchallenge/ They say "As for other Arctic travellers this year, as I write, no other teams have completed an entire last degree to the Pole on foot or ski." That seems to have been prophetic. In August (much later in the melt season) 1958 the American submarine USS Nautilus was the first to cross the Arctic. They could find nowhere to surface at the pole because the ice was so thick, much to their disappointment. August five years ago it was reported that the pole was ice free. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/888235.stm The Arctic ice is melting rapidly, and no amount of sneering at the reports will prevent it getting very much worse. Cheers, Alastair. |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Michael Mcneil" wrote in message news:09f01609985524a2ab2adcbff2ee4894.45219@mygate .mailgate.org... "Shaun Pudwell" wrote in message I was under the impression that the summer season last year at the pole was both later and shorter than normal. So what mechanism has caused the conditions or doesn't anyone know? (Besides me, that is.) I think everyone knows what is causing the ice to melt, only some people won't admit it :-( Cheers, Alastair. |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Alastair McDonald" k
wrote in message I think everyone knows what is causing the ice to melt, only some people won't admit it :-( The unseasonably warm late winter/early spring? Or do you mean they also know what caused that but were unable to bring themselves to say it was the run of lunar phases? One thing we know is that there is just as much sun as there was and ever will be. And we haven't got any nearer to it. -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Michael Mcneil" wrote in message news:0f25289e8cff4b97170603f9821afdfe.45219@mygate .mailgate.org... "Alastair McDonald" k wrote in message I think everyone knows what is causing the ice to melt, only some people won't admit it :-( The unseasonably warm late winter/early spring? Or do you mean they also know what caused that but were unable to bring themselves to say it was the run of lunar phases? One thing we know is that there is just as much sun as there was and ever will be. And we haven't got any nearer to it. That is true. And we also know that the amount of greenhouse gas in the atmospere has increased. If you are looking for reasons for long term changes, that is the place to look. However, if you are more concerned with montly variations then I would have thought that the lunar cycle and atmopheric tides (long waves) would have been the first thing to check out. Cheers, Alastair. |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Alastair McDonald" k
wrote in message That is true. And we also know that the amount of greenhouse gas in the atmospere has increased. If you are looking for reasons for long term changes, that is the place to look. However, if you are more concerned with montly variations then I would have thought that the lunar cycle and atmopheric tides (long waves) would have been the first thing to check out. : ) -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
An interesting aspect to the salt balance of the arctic ocean is that
the intake of dilute brine must equal the outflow of ice and the deeper brine, since the density of the sea water under the ice is pretty evenly 35 gm /litre. So the measure of the outflow of ice each year tells the intake from the Baltic and environs. Even I can understand that maths. It must be wrong. -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Michael Mcneil" wrote in message news:d32f550c136b8d8474500bec46a3a5a4.45219@mygate .mailgate.org... An interesting aspect to the salt balance of the arctic ocean is that the intake of dilute brine must equal the outflow of ice and the deeper brine, since the density of the sea water under the ice is pretty evenly 35 gm /litre. So the measure of the outflow of ice each year tells the intake from the Baltic and environs. Even I can understand that maths. It must be wrong. Yes, it is wrong. The water going out is fresh, but these days, the water going into the Arctic is salty water originating from the Gulf Stream. This means that the Arctic Ocean is getting saltier and hence the ice is melting. Eventually the output from the Arctic will be salty and there will be a salinity balance, but by then the ice will have gone :-( Cheers, Alastair. |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"lawrence Jenkins" wrote in message ... Well an Arctic expedition which set out to prove global that warming is going to kill us all was called of due to weather and ice conditions. well the reasons are named as "slushy ice, open water, drifting and yes to underline it all......deep snow, too deep to navigate. Call me cynical but I thought they went prepared for melt condition ? it was a mission to prove global warning-yet snow not rain stopped them in their erm.. tracks. " One World Expedition stops short of first time summer crossing of Arctic Ocean; explorers vow to continue work on global warming GRAND MARAIS, MINN., June 3 ---Explorers Lonnie Dupre and Eric Larsen were forced today to cut short the first attempt to cross the Arctic Ocean in summer, but have vowed to continue campaigning for action on human-caused global climate change, including work with expedition partner Greenpeace. Unexpected weather conditions, including unusually deep snow and a steady southerly ice drift, led the explorers to call for an airlift. Since leaving Cape Arctichesky on Siberia's coast May 10, the team traveled 150 miles but made just 45 miles northward toward the North Pole, unable to maintain the pace required to complete the trip before winter storms arrive. They had only a few days of conditions where they could use their skis, and even then could not make the daily distance required by the expedition plan. Dangerous broken ice - fields of small pans and brash ice joined by thin layers of sea ice which would not support the team's weight, forcing them to swim and break their way forward - constantly moved in a gyroscopic action, erasing their hard-won progress each night as they slept. Snow fell most days, building up a deep layer through which travel was extremely difficult and slow. Daily temperatures spiked above freezing, causing the snow to turn to slush. The explorers plan to meet with Arctic climate experts to share their firsthand experience and observations, and to see if conditions this year were out of the ordinary. " Go to their site look at at the sponsers.http://www.oneworldexpedition.com/pressroom.html I think its a case of "We will have global warming. We will!" Just look at the way they have been treating David Bellamy. Typical of this type of argument. Lets disagree with him outright beacuse he dares to challenge "the consensus". Which really means lets not tolerate dissent. So what has happened? David Bellamy has been asked to stand down as the patron of the Centre for Alternative Technology. After this, no doubt then that we won't be seeing David Bellamy on the BBC from now on:-( Gavin. |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Gavin Staples" writes:
Just look at the way they have been treating David Bellamy. Typical of this type of argument. Lets disagree with him outright beacuse he dares to challenge "the consensus". Which really means lets not tolerate dissent. So what has happened? David Bellamy has been asked to stand down as the patron of the Centre for Alternative Technology. The alternative, and to my mind correct, way of regarding what has happened is that someone with a public profile has made use of that to pontificate on a subject on which he is not expert and about which are he is badly underinformed. That this has not done him any favours is scarcely surprising. After this, no doubt then that we won't be seeing David Bellamy on the BBC from now on:-( He had dropped off the TV schedules some years ago anyway, so no change there then. -- Richard Stamper |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition
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You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Alastair McDonald" k
wrote in message "Michael Mcneil" wrote in message news:d32f550c136b8d8474500bec46a3a5a4.45219@mygate .mailgate.org... An interesting aspect to the salt balance of the arctic ocean is that the intake of dilute brine must equal the outflow of ice and the deeper brine, since the density of the sea water under the ice is pretty evenly 35 gm /litre. It must be wrong. Yes, it is wrong. The water going out is fresh, but these days, the water going into the Arctic is salty water originating from the Gulf Stream. This means that the Arctic Ocean is getting saltier and hence the ice is melting. Eventually the output from the Arctic will be salty and there will be a salinity balance, but by then the ice will have gone. If your theory holds water then there will be records of it now that the Russians and the Yanks have stopped playing silly buggers up there. One problem with your idea is that there will be a layer of melt insulating the icefrom the incresed salt which by the way had better sink pdq before it mixes. The other alternative is that while the sea ice leaves at a rate of knots on th esurface increased salt water leaves below it, maintaining the status. Needless to say my theory fits a failsafe model that shouts cyclical and explains the El Nino, La Nina events. (And my religious mania.) It would also fit in with increased CO2 and other "pollutant" gasses in times past when there were high points in these cycles. (If it could ever be proven there were such polution in the past.) -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
It would also fit in with increased CO2 and other "pollutant" gasses in times past when there were high points in these cycles. Michael since when has Co2 become a pollutant. If you are correct the sooner we eradicate Co2 from the atmosphere the better!!!! Didn't like vegetattion much anyway. |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Gavin Staples" wrote in message ... "lawrence Jenkins" wrote in message ... Well an Arctic expedition which set out to prove global that warming is going to kill us all was called of due to weather and ice conditions. well the reasons are named as "slushy ice, open water, drifting and yes to underline it all......deep snow, too deep to navigate. Call me cynical but I thought they went prepared for melt condition ? it was a mission to prove global warning-yet snow not rain stopped them in their erm.. tracks. " One World Expedition stops short of first time summer crossing of Arctic Ocean; explorers vow to continue work on global warming GRAND MARAIS, MINN., June 3 ---Explorers Lonnie Dupre and Eric Larsen were forced today to cut short the first attempt to cross the Arctic Ocean in summer, but have vowed to continue campaigning for action on human-caused global climate change, including work with expedition partner Greenpeace. Unexpected weather conditions, including unusually deep snow and a steady southerly ice drift, led the explorers to call for an airlift. Since leaving Cape Arctichesky on Siberia's coast May 10, the team traveled 150 miles but made just 45 miles northward toward the North Pole, unable to maintain the pace required to complete the trip before winter storms arrive. They had only a few days of conditions where they could use their skis, and even then could not make the daily distance required by the expedition plan. Dangerous broken ice - fields of small pans and brash ice joined by thin layers of sea ice which would not support the team's weight, forcing them to swim and break their way forward - constantly moved in a gyroscopic action, erasing their hard-won progress each night as they slept. Snow fell most days, building up a deep layer through which travel was extremely difficult and slow. Daily temperatures spiked above freezing, causing the snow to turn to slush. The explorers plan to meet with Arctic climate experts to share their firsthand experience and observations, and to see if conditions this year were out of the ordinary. " Go to their site look at at the sponsers.http://www.oneworldexpedition.com/pressroom.html I think its a case of "We will have global warming. We will!" Just look at the way they have been treating David Bellamy. Typical of this type of argument. Lets disagree with him outright beacuse he dares to challenge "the consensus". Which really means lets not tolerate dissent. So what has happened? David Bellamy has been asked to stand down as the patron of the Centre for Alternative Technology. After this, no doubt then that we won't be seeing David Bellamy on the BBC from now on:-( Gavin. Not the BBC ? surely they're not like that. What was that song they used as the theme tune for the last children in need? ah yes "shakin that arse" The television license site is fantastic . The last time I `looked you could read it in 78 languages. Yes the BBC has become the last refuge for all those privaleged middle-classes who hate themselvs, wanted Stalin and Mao in power and actually ignored the atrocities in those countries and now this motley group of failed commies run the BBC. The BBC are brain washing ****s nowdays just the main news story recently about leukaemia and power lines. It was presented in that typical Michael Burke style of whiny whingy wettness."Report released today, powerlines linked to cancer cover up , scandal, conspiracy why OH WHY???. As the report unfolded it turns out that something like 3 people who'd lived near power-lines in the last 45 years had developed leukaemia. Don't let facts stop the BBC. I'm glad Keith is happy that Bellamy has been given the spanish archer by the BBC. It allows more space for people like Julian "fisting Norman Lamont" Clary to speak to us all with his crude often base double entendres at peak family viewing times. So in essence I wouldn't trust the BBC with any objectivity on global warming. Give me Bellamy any day. By the way, one of the cited reasons for "mother earth I hear you crying" Greenpeace backed melting arctic awarness expedition was "heavy snow" |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"lawrence.jenkins" wrote in message
It would also fit in with increased CO2 and other "pollutant" gasses in times past when there were high points in these cycles. Michael since when has Co2 become a pollutant. If you are correct the sooner we eradicate Co2 from the atmosphere the better!!!! It became a pollutant when the global warmers wanted it to be one. Personally I have never been able to understand why Hawaii is the datum for clean air. Or doesn't it put out as much CO2 as normal vocanoes? I believe that CO2 levels are maintained at around 1/2% just like they always were with perhaps some occasional rises due to the largish eruptions we have had occasionally since they reset their satellites at NASA. (I wonder what readings the Russkis were getting in the late 70's.) Anyway I put the term pollutants in quotes because I don't believe they are pollutants. Any of "them". As for the US or A not signing up fot the Kyoto Agreement. That is how democracies sometimes go. If the US wants to invade another brown skinned peoples they will offer to join I am sure and get the backing of any satellite countries like Britain (who needed the US to stop funding terrorism Northern Ireland.) -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Michael Mcneil" wrote in message news:8fa45de5f00a54541bbe3c732448831c.45219@mygate .mailgate.org... If your theory holds water then there will be records of it now that the Russians and the Yanks have stopped playing silly buggers up there. Don't you mean if my theory holds salt :-? Unfortunately, now the Yanks and Ruskies have stopped playing wargames up there, no one is around to take the measurements needed. Polar explorers, paddling around on ice floes, are not much use when it comes to getting temperature- salinity profiles of the ocean. One problem with your idea is that there will be a layer of melt insulating the icefrom the incresed salt which by the way had better sink pdq before it mixes. The Arctic Ocean is a basin with shallow outflows at the Bering Strait, and into the North Atlantic. As it fills up with warm salty water, the fresh water above spills out. The other alternative is that while the sea ice leaves at a rate of knots on the surface increased salt water leaves below it, maintaining the status. Needless to say my theory fits a failsafe model that shouts cyclical and explains the El Nino, La Nina events. (And my religious mania.) El Nino and La Nina have a four to seven year cycle. The Arctic ice has been melting for nearly 40 years. Moreover, most the galciers throughout the world are in retreat. "Global warming knows no borders. Montana's majestic Glacier National Park will soon need a new name. When founded in 1910, it had 150 glaciers. Today it has fewer than 50 and U.S. Geological Survey experts expect the park's last glacier to trickle away in 30 years." See http://scoop.agonist.org/story/2004/10/13/9523/9428 It would also fit in with increased CO2 and other "pollutant" gasses in times past when there were high points in these cycles. (If it could ever be proven there were such polution in the past.) "Environmental changes, which generally come in geological time, should not be noticeable in a human life span ... but they are." http://scoop.agonist.org/story/2004/10/13/9523/9428 HTH, Cheers, Alastair. |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Alastair McDonald" k wrote in message ... "Michael Mcneil" wrote in message news:8fa45de5f00a54541bbe3c732448831c.45219@mygate .mailgate.org... If your theory holds water then there will be records of it now that the Russians and the Yanks have stopped playing silly buggers up there. Don't you mean if my theory holds salt :-? Unfortunately, now the Yanks and Ruskies have stopped playing wargames up there, no one is around to take the measurements needed. Polar explorers, paddling around on ice floes, are not much use when it comes to getting temperature- salinity profiles of the ocean. One problem with your idea is that there will be a layer of melt insulating the icefrom the incresed salt which by the way had better sink pdq before it mixes. The Arctic Ocean is a basin with shallow outflows at the Bering Strait, and into the North Atlantic. As it fills up with warm salty water, the fresh water above spills out. The other alternative is that while the sea ice leaves at a rate of knots on the surface increased salt water leaves below it, maintaining the status. Needless to say my theory fits a failsafe model that shouts cyclical and explains the El Nino, La Nina events. (And my religious mania.) El Nino and La Nina have a four to seven year cycle. The Arctic ice has been melting for nearly 40 years. Moreover, most the galciers throughout the world are in retreat. "Global warming knows no borders. Montana's majestic Glacier National Park will soon need a new name. When founded in 1910, it had 150 glaciers. Today it has fewer than 50 and U.S. Geological Survey experts expect the park's last glacier to trickle away in 30 years." See http://scoop.agonist.org/story/2004/10/13/9523/9428 It would also fit in with increased CO2 and other "pollutant" gasses in times past when there were high points in these cycles. (If it could ever be proven there were such polution in the past.) "Environmental changes, which generally come in geological time, should not be noticeable in a human life span ... but they are." http://scoop.agonist.org/story/2004/10/13/9523/9428 HTH, Cheers, Alastair. How many glaciers were there in Montana's majestic Glacier National Park in the early middle ages warming when the temperature of the globe was 2C warmer than it is now? This was a time when it was possible to grow maize in the UK, when the Archbishop of Canterbury had a fig orchard of viable figs, and when it was possible to grow grapes in Scotland. We don't hear much about this. Shame professor Hubert Lamb isn't around. Gavin. |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
wrote in message ... It would also fit in with increased CO2 and other "pollutant" gasses in times past when there were high points in these cycles. Michael since when has Co2 become a pollutant. If you are correct the sooner we eradicate Co2 from the atmosphere the better!!!! Didn't like vegetattion much anyway. If Co2 is a pollutant then heaven knows what will happen to the vegetation. If Co2 is a pollutant then we had better kill off a few humans then. After all what do us humans breath out every few seconds, Co2 of course. Gavin. |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Gavin Staples" wrote in message ... "Alastair McDonald" k wrote in message ... "Michael Mcneil" wrote in message news:8fa45de5f00a54541bbe3c732448831c.45219@mygate .mailgate.org... If your theory holds water then there will be records of it now that the Russians and the Yanks have stopped playing silly buggers up there. Don't you mean if my theory holds salt :-? Unfortunately, now the Yanks and Ruskies have stopped playing wargames up there, no one is around to take the measurements needed. Polar explorers, paddling around on ice floes, are not much use when it comes to getting temperature- salinity profiles of the ocean. One problem with your idea is that there will be a layer of melt insulating the icefrom the incresed salt which by the way had better sink pdq before it mixes. The Arctic Ocean is a basin with shallow outflows at the Bering Strait, and into the North Atlantic. As it fills up with warm salty water, the fresh water above spills out. The other alternative is that while the sea ice leaves at a rate of knots on the surface increased salt water leaves below it, maintaining the status. Needless to say my theory fits a failsafe model that shouts cyclical and explains the El Nino, La Nina events. (And my religious mania.) El Nino and La Nina have a four to seven year cycle. The Arctic ice has been melting for nearly 40 years. Moreover, most the galciers throughout the world are in retreat. "Global warming knows no borders. Montana's majestic Glacier National Park will soon need a new name. When founded in 1910, it had 150 glaciers. Today it has fewer than 50 and U.S. Geological Survey experts expect the park's last glacier to trickle away in 30 years." See http://scoop.agonist.org/story/2004/10/13/9523/9428 It would also fit in with increased CO2 and other "pollutant" gasses in times past when there were high points in these cycles. (If it could ever be proven there were such polution in the past.) "Environmental changes, which generally come in geological time, should not be noticeable in a human life span ... but they are." http://scoop.agonist.org/story/2004/10/13/9523/9428 HTH, Cheers, Alastair. How many glaciers were there in Montana's majestic Glacier National Park in the early middle ages warming when the temperature of the globe was 2C warmer than it is now? At least 150. It takes longer than 800 years to create a glacier. This was a time when it was possible to grow maize in the UK, when the Archbishop of Canterbury had a fig orchard of viable figs, and when it was possible to grow grapes in Scotland. It is now. We don't hear much about this. Perhaps you don't, but I hear it all the time from sceptics spouting off. Shame professor Hubert Lamb isn't around. Yes, he might put you straight. Cheers, Alastair. |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Gavin Staples" wrote in message ... How many glaciers were there in Montana's majestic Glacier National Park in the early middle ages warming when the temperature of the globe was 2C warmer than it is now? This was a time when it was possible to grow maize in the UK, ^^^^^^^ LOL, Gavin. Can I gently suggest you stop digging? You're far enough down now. pe |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Philip Eden" philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom wrote in message
"Gavin Staples" wrote in message ... How many glaciers were there in Montana's majestic Glacier National Park in the early middle ages warming when the temperature of the globe was 2C warmer than it is now? This was a time when it was possible to grow maize in the UK, ^^^^^^^ LOL, Gavin. Can I gently suggest you stop digging? You're far enough down now. It's interesting that the cycle should be highlighted in the Americas. In the US or A especially, the sharp change of culture that started with the widespread use of gunpowder in the 1830's eradicating by the 20th century the huge herds of bison, also upset the top of the chain, wolves and coyotes. It has only recently been realised that the destruction of species has the knock on effect of eradicating tree species. What happens is that wolves and coyotes rely on small rodents as their staple. These and larger browsers are free to feed on and eradicate tree seedlings and saplings. Whole ranges of species (I'm not sure of the definition of species but I believe the term genus is the one I am after here) had been hit since early Victorian times in the North American continent. Coupled with that was the widespread drainage of wetlands that began in the time of George Washington. So now that the farm has changed we are blaming the tractor? Here in Britain a form of farming that relied for centuries on hedges and ditches every three or four acres has by and large been eradicated. So now the use of the London flood barrier "has shshshshot up" (ITV presenter just now -emphasising the term for the sake of glow-ball warmers.) And who are we going to blame for that? People who persist in exhaling? Vegetarians? -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Gavin Staples" "Alastair McDonald" "Michael Mcneil" wrote in message ................ (Lummy -what a trio!) If your theory holds water then there will be records of it now that the Russians and the Yanks have stopped playing silly buggers up there. Don't you mean if my theory holds salt :-? Unfortunately, now the Yanks and Ruskies have stopped playing wargames up there, no one is around to take the measurements needed. Polar explorers, paddling around on ice floes, are not much use when it comes to getting temperature- salinity profiles of the ocean. etc,etc,etc....................................... .. actually there are quite a lot of people taking measurements ,see eg- http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/sipo/ http://rdoas-sig.amtp.cam.ac.uk/Public/PandP.html -- regards, David add '17' to Waghorne to reply |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Waghorn" wrote in message ... "Gavin Staples" "Alastair McDonald" "Michael Mcneil" wrote in message ............... (Lummy -what a trio!) If your theory holds water then there will be records of it now that the Russians and the Yanks have stopped playing silly buggers up there. Don't you mean if my theory holds salt :-? Unfortunately, now the Yanks and Ruskies have stopped playing wargames up there, no one is around to take the measurements needed. Polar explorers, paddling around on ice floes, are not much use when it comes to getting temperature- salinity profiles of the ocean. etc,etc,etc....................................... .. So you are rushing in to defend Gavin and Michael :-? What does that say about your scientific credentials :-? I can't say I have ever thought of Philip Eden as an angel before grin actually there are quite a lot of people taking measurements ,see eg- http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/sipo/ http://rdoas-sig.amtp.cam.ac.uk/Public/PandP.html Two is not a lot by anyone's standards. Moreover you second page is about the Greenland Sea. That is not an area covered by multi-year Arctic sea ice, so we are only left with one - Peter Wadham's site. At the recent COAPEC meeting he announced that he had obtained measurements from a Royal Navy submarine at £250,000 but his request for funding to process the data was turned down - so even though he is looking he is not publishing. The main source of data at the North Pole was from the Russian floating ice stations. That ended when the USSR broke up. It was resumed last year, but if you recall that station floated away and the scientists on the floe had to be rescued before they drowned. Cheers, Alastair. |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Alastair McDonald" So you are rushing in to defend Gavin and Michael :-? What does that say about your scientific credentials :-? I can't say I have ever thought of Philip Eden as an angel before grin An angel as well as three 'wise men' you seem to have drifted off into theology , -- regards, David add '17' to Waghorne to reply |
You have to laugh. Even if it isn't funny?
"Waghorn" wrote in message
"Alastair McDonald" So you are rushing in to defend Gavin and Michael :-? What does that say about your scientific credentials :-? I can't say I have ever thought of Philip Eden as an angel before grin An angel as well as three 'wise men' you seem to have drifted off into theology , Actually, old boy, the term "Angel" means "messenger" not "guardian". To his credit Alistair can be seen as a guardian. But all of us interested in the earth sciences depend on "messenger" services, be they satellites or seismographs; ISPs or postal services; weather stations or gut feelings. As for theology, looking after the earth is built into human nature. It is those divorced from an hands on control of the planet -or any part thereof who in the name of progress and productivity do the most damage to it. And as for scientists: Who get given Nobel prizes? Is it dirt farmers or the people who invent poisons such as agent orange and tabun? Is it the people like Fritz Haber who gave the world the nitrates that produced the Green Revolution and tabun or Alfred Nobel the man who gave us dynamite and whose company now produce land-mines and machine guns among other messengers of death? Or is it people like Jacquie Katona, a spokesman for the originals who live in Kakadu National Park, one of the last original inhabitants to live in the way their ancestors have done, untouched by scientists or accountants. Now, for those of you who know no better; Kakadu is a region of Australia where the land is burned out every year. The natives do this to promote the new growth and to hunt the wildlife. Soon they will be prevented from doing this by scientists and environmentalists. Scientists on the other hand, are not an indigenous people. Their ranks are made up out of the minority of those who, divorced from the sharp end of country life, have learned how to fill out forms correctly. They have been able to maintain that method of eking a living, based not unlike the principles of modern agriculture, on a process of govenment handouts for that purpose. The fundamental difference between these two groups (in this particular area) is not a matter of citizenship but one of what to do with uranium. Whilst Fritz and Albert were undoubtedly scientists )and Angels of Death,) what is Jacqui? By an accident of timing she can consider herself a citizen. Her parents were not. Is she an Angel? A scientist? She knows better than most, what is going on around her; ....in every sense of the word. -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Waghorn" wrote in message ... "Alastair McDonald" So you are rushing in to defend Gavin and Michael :-? What does that say about your scientific credentials :-? I can't say I have ever thought of Philip Eden as an angel before grin An angel as well as three 'wise men' you seem to have drifted off into theology , No, I was thinking of the expression "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." You rushed to attack me, while Philip gently rebuked Gavin. Cheers, Alastair. |
You have to laugh. Arctic expedition fails
"Alastair McDonald" No, I was thinking of the expression "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." You rushed to attack me, while Philip gently rebuked Gavin. Cheers, Alastair. Well,yr almost as sensitive as a simple climate model-I can't see that any personal attack was intended. The thread was generating much text ,but little clarity for me. All I intended to point out was that somebody was collecting sea ice data as I remembered Peter Wadhams had some publicity after the recent EGU conference.There is ,or was data, available and published from US subs and if Wadhams has good data ,but no money to exploit it then that's worrying.( Perhaps the RN could auction a torpedo or two for him) But you're right -I was foolish to rush in ,the 'Archangel' has counselled me in the past, -- regards, David add '17' to Waghorne to reply |
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