Aaarrrggghh!!! One of my pet hates and even the Met Office is at it.
The current early warning for heavy rain contains the following gem:

--------------------
"That rain will be accompanied by strong southerly winds with gusts
to gale or severe gale force over southern and southeastern England."
--------------------

I quote from the Met Office's own document titled "Terms used for
describing mean surface wind speed":

--------------------
"Beaufort Forces apply ONLY to mean wind speeds (the average over a
given period of time - usually one clock hour) and MUST NOT be used in
reference to gusts"
--------------------

The words in capitals in that quote are as given in the Met Office
document.

If the Met Office can't get it right and include sensationalist terms
in their warnings and forecasts can we blame the media for doing the
same. The message would have been correctly conveyed by saying "strong
southerly winds with gusts to 40-45 knots", or the mph equivalents.
Instead, they are giving the impression that there will be severe gales
over southern and southeastern England.

Norman
--
Norman Lynagh
Chalfont St Giles, Buckinghamshire
85m a.s.l.
(remove "thisbit" twice to e-mail)

"Norman" wrote in message
...
Aaarrrggghh!!! One of my pet hates and even the Met Office is at it.
The current early warning for heavy rain contains the following gem:

--------------------
"That rain will be accompanied by strong southerly winds with gusts
to gale or severe gale force over southern and southeastern England."
--------------------

I quote from the Met Office's own document titled "Terms used for
describing mean surface wind speed":

--------------------
"Beaufort Forces apply ONLY to mean wind speeds (the average over a
given period of time - usually one clock hour) and MUST NOT be used in
reference to gusts"
--------------------

The words in capitals in that quote are as given in the Met Office
document.

If the Met Office can't get it right and include sensationalist terms
in their warnings and forecasts can we blame the media for doing the
same. The message would have been correctly conveyed by saying "strong
southerly winds with gusts to 40-45 knots", or the mph equivalents.
Instead, they are giving the impression that there will be severe gales
over southern and southeastern England.

Norman
--
Norman Lynagh
Chalfont St Giles, Buckinghamshire
85m a.s.l.
(remove "thisbit" twice to e-mail)
----------------------------
I also find it hard to see in that warning how a line drawn approximately
along the Thames can change from 20% to 60% risk. I would have thought there
would be an area between at 40%. In fairness I suppose they could be
expecting a sharp transition so it's not worth bothering with. Unusually big
jump though.
Dave

I agree Norman. As an ex-aviator, I never bothered with terms like
gales, strong winds, etc. It was NUMBERS (30, 45 knots, etc). Do
mariners do the same? Indeed, I have little idea nor need to know how
a gale is defined in terms of actual speeds.

Martin. You used to do the shipping forecasts. Was it the user or
the supplier that wanted the terms gale, etc?

Jack

On Jan 14, 6:59*pm, "Jack )"
wrote:
I agree Norman. *As an ex-aviator, I never bothered with terms like
gales, strong winds, etc. *It was NUMBERS (30, 45 knots, etc). *Do
mariners do the same? *Indeed, I have little idea nor need to know how
a gale is defined in terms of actual speeds.

Martin. *You used to do the shipping forecasts. *Was it the user or
the supplier that wanted the terms gale, etc?

... a long way before my time, but in my copy of 'Weather Map' which
has examples of the Shipping Forecast from the early/mid 1950s, the
numerical value assigned to the wind is *not* present: e.g.
" Sole, Fastnet, Lundy, - Wind south-westerly, fresh increasing to
strong to gale. (etc.)"

If I had to *guess* (and it would be that), a change occurred whereby
the forecast wind was defined using the Beaufort notation in terms of
a 'Force' number, and the terms 'Gale', 'Severe Gale' etc., were
retained for emphasis at the higher values.
Any changes in my experience come from the user.

I agree with Norman: bad practice and confusing to boot!

Martin.

On 14 Jan, 18:59, "Jack )"
wrote:
I agree Norman. *As an ex-aviator, I never bothered with terms like
gales, strong winds, etc. *It was NUMBERS (30, 45 knots, etc). *Do
mariners do the same? *Indeed, I have little idea nor need to know how
a gale is defined in terms of actual speeds.

Martin. *You used to do the shipping forecasts. *Was it the user or
the supplier that wanted the terms gale, etc?

Jack

The term gale means a lot down here on the tip of Cornwall. A force 8
gale warning and boats think of returning to Newlyn, Force 9 severe
gale they stop thinking & do it. Just look at local sites like
www.sennen-cove.com/index.htm , which is produced brilliantly by the
coxswain of the Sennen lifeboat, and you will see the word gale used
appropriately. The beaufort sea descriptions are so useful, and are
instantly meaningful when you're by the sea.

Like Norman the I hate the phrase 'gusts to gale force', on exposed
coasts gusts to gale force occur a good proportion of the days in
winter, so is totally meaningless. It just means it's a bit windy.

I find the % risk maps essentially pretty c**p. Anyone who lives right
on the sea front knows the wind is normally dramatically less a mile
or less inland, and so is the risk of damage. Yesterdays depression
gave gales on the sea front, strong enough to remove tiles and it was
virtually impossible to stand out at Praa Sands. But at my site, just
800m from the sea, the strongest gust was only 43mph, and it never
really got above Force 6.

Graham
Penzance

wrote:

On Jan 14, 6:59*pm, "Jack )"
wrote:
I agree Norman. *As an ex-aviator, I never bothered with terms like
gales, strong winds, etc. *It was NUMBERS (30, 45 knots, etc). *Do
mariners do the same? *Indeed, I have little idea nor need to know
how a gale is defined in terms of actual speeds.

Martin. *You used to do the shipping forecasts. *Was it the user or
the supplier that wanted the terms gale, etc?

... a long way before my time, but in my copy of 'Weather Map' which
has examples of the Shipping Forecast from the early/mid 1950s, the
numerical value assigned to the wind is not present: e.g.
" Sole, Fastnet, Lundy, - Wind south-westerly, fresh increasing to
strong to gale. (etc.)"

If I had to guess (and it would be that), a change occurred whereby
the forecast wind was defined using the Beaufort notation in terms of
a 'Force' number, and the terms 'Gale', 'Severe Gale' etc., were
retained for emphasis at the higher values.
Any changes in my experience come from the user.

I agree with Norman: bad practice and confusing to boot!

Martin.

The Beaufort Wind Scale does, of course, have its origins in marine
meteorology. It was devised long before the days of instrumentation
and, essentially, is a scale based on the appearance of the sea. This
is why it relates to the mean wind speed and not to gust speeds. It is
only in more recent times that wind speed ranges were assigned to the
various Beaufort numbers to give the Beaufort Scale as we know it
today. Even more recently a so-called Scientific Scale has been
introduced, still using the Beaufort numbers but with slightly
different wind speed bands assigned to the numbers. This is not used
operationally but is used in research work.

Traditionally, wind speed reports from ships were made from an
assessment of the sea state. The observer might decide, for example,
that the sea state looked like the low end of a Force 8 and would
therefore give, say, 35 knots as the wind speed for synoptic
observation purposes, although the log entry would simply be Force 8.
State of Sea cards were issued to ships to assist in assessing the
Beaufort Force. A database of winds assessed in this manner now extends
back well over 100 years. In more recent times the database has become
greatly contaminated by the progressive introduction of anemometers on
ships. It is generally considered in the marine meteorological
community that the body of wind data based on estimates from the sea
states is more reliable than the body of data based on measurements
from anemometers installed on ships. Fortunately, the synoptic code
differentiates between instrumentally measured winds and winds
estimated from the sea state so the two data sets can be separated out.

Norman
--
Norman Lynagh
Chalfont St Giles, Buckinghamshire
85m a.s.l.
(remove "thisbit" twice to e-mail)

Graham, general Met Office usage defines a gale in terms of both mean speed
and gusts. Hence a severe gale is either mean speed 45kts, or gusts 52kt, if
memory serves me right. Hence gusts to severe gale force means gusts to
52kts. I doubt this is widely known. To confuse matters further, the Severe
Weather Warnings use a different limit, ie 70mph gusts for issue of warnings
of INLAND 'severe gales'...

What I REALLY hate is 'winds gusting to...' , and the constant use of the
present tense when giving a forecast. It is just about understandable when
the TV presenter is obviously describing a sequence of weather charts, but
on the radio it is confusing. I even heard a past tense used in a forecast
for 'tomorrow' a few days ago!

Weaman

"Graham Easterling" wrote in message
...
On 14 Jan, 18:59, "Jack )"

Like Norman the I hate the phrase 'gusts to gale force', on exposed
coasts gusts to gale force occur a good proportion of the days in
winter, so is totally meaningless. It just means it's a bit windy.

On 14 Jan, 20:48, "weaman" wrote:
Graham, general Met Office usage defines a gale in terms of both mean speed
and gusts. Hence a severe gale is either mean speed 45kts, or gusts 52kt, if
memory serves me right. Hence gusts to severe gale force means gusts to
52kts. I doubt this is widely known.

I certainly didn't know. I would have thought the 52 kt gust theshold
would normally be reached with a mean windspeed well below 45kts.

Graham
Penzance

"Graham Easterling" wrote in message

...
On 14 Jan, 18:59, "Jack )"

Like Norman the I hate the phrase 'gusts to gale force', on exposed
coasts gusts to gale force occur a good proportion of the days in
winter, so is totally meaningless. It just means it's a bit windy.

weaman wrote:

Graham, general Met Office usage defines a gale in terms of both mean
speed and gusts. Hence a severe gale is either mean speed 45kts, or
gusts 52kt, if memory serves me right. Hence gusts to severe gale
force means gusts to 52kts. I doubt this is widely known. To confuse
matters further, the Severe Weather Warnings use a different limit,
ie 70mph gusts for issue of warnings of INLAND 'severe gales'...


I think you're confusing the definition of a severe gale with the
criteria used for the issue of severe gale warnings. They are not one
and the same thing. A severe gale is defined as a mean wind speed of
41-47 knots. Gusts don't come into it as the Met Office document I
referred to clearly points out. On the other hand, the criteria for
issuing severe gale warnings do include a gust speed threshold (I can't
remember off the top of my head what that threshold is). Nevertheless,
even if that gust threshold is reached or exceeded a severe gale has
actually occurred only if the mean wind speed criterion is reached.
Confusing or what?!!!

Norman
--
Norman Lynagh
Chalfont St Giles, Buckinghamshire
85m a.s.l.
(remove "thisbit" twice to e-mail)

Graham Easterling wrote:

On 14 Jan, 18:59, "Jack )"
wrote:
I agree Norman. *As an ex-aviator, I never bothered with terms like
gales, strong winds, etc. *It was NUMBERS (30, 45 knots, etc). *Do
mariners do the same? *Indeed, I have little idea nor need to know
how a gale is defined in terms of actual speeds.

Martin. *You used to do the shipping forecasts. *Was it the user or
the supplier that wanted the terms gale, etc?

Jack

The term gale means a lot down here on the tip of Cornwall. A force 8
gale warning and boats think of returning to Newlyn, Force 9 severe
gale they stop thinking & do it. Just look at local sites like
www.sennen-cove.com/index.htm , which is produced brilliantly by the
coxswain of the Sennen lifeboat, and you will see the word gale used
appropriately. The beaufort sea descriptions are so useful, and are
instantly meaningful when you're by the sea.

Like Norman the I hate the phrase 'gusts to gale force', on exposed
coasts gusts to gale force occur a good proportion of the days in
winter, so is totally meaningless. It just means it's a bit windy.


Gale Force is defined as a mean wind speed of 34-40 knots. Therefore,
the term "gusts to gale force" would actually mean "gusts to a mean
speed of 34-40 knots" which is clearly nonsense.

Sorry to be banging on about this so much but it's been a pet hate of
mine since an occasion when I had to argue the toss in Court with an
obstinate QC who insisted that a gale had occurred because there were
wind gusts to 35 knots. The outcome of the case depended on whether or
not there had been a gale. Sometimes it matters!

Norman
--
Norman Lynagh
Chalfont St Giles, Buckinghamshire
85m a.s.l.
(remove "thisbit" twice to e-mail)