"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
one...
This is worrying:
http://www.spacedaily.com/2006/08083....izf2g3n5.html
As the temperature rises, more of the suboceanic methane ice will melt,
which will up the methane in the atmosphere, which will cause it to become
warmer, which will cause more methane ice to melt...
The melting of methane ice is thought to be one of the factors
contributing to the Great Permian Extinction.

Pat

Yeah, but Pat; don't forget that there are no space images of the Arctic and
Antarctica from 50 years ago, let alone 250 years ago, or 1,000 years ago -
nobody knows how much of the sea ice existed back then. We've only got
figures from the past 100 years at most.

"Great Permian Extinction"? - millions of years ago? Long before people
started cutting down forests and burning coal, oil and natural gas. It's
cyclic - it has happened before and it will happen again; it's got nothing
to do with human activity. However, we have technology that can overcome
the difficulties experienced in the past - Victoria (my home state) is about
to build a water desalination plat - we'll never run low on drinking water
again; that couldn't have happened even 50 years ago.

Our species will survive quite well this time (if the so-called [and
self-appointed] 'experts' are correct). Don't worry; everything will be
fine - for us, our species in general and our planet as a whole.

On Aug 30, 7:58 pm, "Alan Erskine" wrote:
"Pat Flannery" wrote in message

one...

This is worrying:
http://www.spacedaily.com/2006/08083....izf2g3n5.html
As the temperature rises, more of the suboceanic methane ice will melt,
which will up the methane in the atmosphere, which will cause it to become
warmer, which will cause more methane ice to melt...
The melting of methane ice is thought to be one of the factors
contributing to the Great Permian Extinction.

Pat

Yeah, but Pat; don't forget that there are no space images of the Arctic and
Antarctica from 50 years ago, let alone 250 years ago, or 1,000 years ago -
nobody knows how much of the sea ice existed back then. We've only got
figures from the past 100 years at most.

"Great Permian Extinction"? - millions of years ago? Long before people
started cutting down forests and burning coal, oil and natural gas. It's
cyclic - it has happened before and it will happen again; it's got nothing
to do with human activity. However, we have technology that can overcome
the difficulties experienced in the past - Victoria (my home state) is about
to build a water desalination plat - we'll never run low on drinking water
again; that couldn't have happened even 50 years ago.

Our species will survive quite well this time (if the so-called [and
self-appointed] 'experts' are correct). Don't worry; everything will be
fine - for us, our species in general and our planet as a whole.

In other words, you're another rich and powerful republican that's in
on the trickle up economy that's keeping your offshore (tax avoidance)
bank accounts stuffed.

~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth

Alan Erskine wrote:
Yeah, but Pat; don't forget that there are no space images of the Arctic and
Antarctica from 50 years ago, let alone 250 years ago, or 1,000 years ago -
nobody knows how much of the sea ice existed back then. We've only got
figures from the past 100 years at most.


The limit of sea ice was known from around 1800 forward via sailing
ships reaching the edge of it during trips to Canada from Europe and out
in the Pacific on trips around Alaska and the Aleutians.

"Great Permian Extinction"? - millions of years ago? Long before people
started cutting down forests and burning coal, oil and natural gas. It's
cyclic - it has happened before and it will happen again; it's got nothing
to do with human activity.

In the case of the Permian extinction, the thing that apparently got
things moving was either a comet or asteroid impact or a huge volcanic
eruption (they are tending toward the latter at the moment); once that
started the warming, the methane ices melted and made things a lot worse.
We had better hope nothing like the Permian extinction ever happens
again - it's called "The Great Dying" as it killed off 96% of all
species living in the sea at the time and 70% of those living on land:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian...tinction_event
Among those that were almost exterminated on land were our direct
ancestors - the mammal-like reptiles - all the large ones died off and
the few puny ones that survived were hard-pressed to survive the reign
of the dinosaurs as they evolved into true mammals and eventually us.
Here's more on the Northwest Passage opening up and the recent methane
releases: http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2...-ice-on-t.html

However, we have technology that can overcome
the difficulties experienced in the past - Victoria (my home state) is about
to build a water desalination plat - we'll never run low on drinking water
again; that couldn't have happened even 50 years ago.

Our species will survive quite well this time (if the so-called [and
self-appointed] 'experts' are correct). Don't worry; everything will be
fine - for us, our species in general and our planet as a whole.


Considering that Australia used to be quite verdant in the area where
now only the vast outback exists, but climate change (either external,
or possibly due to widespread deforestation caused by the arrival of the
Aborigines around 40,000 years ago and the implementation of slash and
burn agricultural methods) turned its interior into a far harsher area
to live, that might be a overly-optimistic assessment of the situation.

Pat

On Aug 29, 10:22 am, "Fievel Mousekewitz Sr \(Not A CT'er\)"
wrote:
"BradGuth" wrote in message

...



On Aug 28, 4:43 pm, "jonathan" wrote:
"eyeball" wrote in message

...
On Aug 28, 10:21 am, BradGuth wrote:

I hear the sky is falling too.

Well, since I moved to Miami I've had Hurricane Andrew
(the most expensive storm is US history) pass forty miles
...south of me. Hurricane Wilma (the most powerful Atlantic
storm EVER) pass forty miles...north of me. And Hurricane
Katrina ( the deadliest storm in recent US history) pass
directly overhead.

And I got a very good taste of all three. So yes, I would
say the sky is indeed falling...literally...on my head.
And down here we can ...smell...that the last part of this
hurricane season, and all of next year is going to be
a couple more for the books.

Jonathan

Too bad you folks can't attribute any of that falling sky or global
warming trend to the 2e20 N/s worth of tidal interactions associated
with our Selene/moon.

If Earth wasn't getting tidal flexed by 55 cm, how much cooler might
our 98.5% fluid Earth get?

~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth

"Nobody wants to hear,, the sky is falling."
(Category 6)

If things keep going the way they are, the sky might literally be falling.
I don't remember what that part of the atmosphere is called.
Hence, (The Day After Tomorrow.)
If I've studied it right though, it'll be both the northern, and southern
hemisphere.
It's not going to be like the (Day After Tomorrow)
If I've done my research right, mostly going byhttp://www.noaa.gov
it's not going to look like (The Day After Tomorrow.) That movie is off.
But not in the way people would hope. It's going to be worse, making a
very small stretch of land inhabitable. Anything near the equator which
is also decently above sea level.. High elevations near the equator will
be the only inhabitable places on earth.
This means, much of Mexico will be under water..
In the (Day After Tomorrow) they find refuge in Mexico.
With rising waters, this probably won't much be possible, because much
of Mexico isn't too far above sea level..
Where can we survive? Possibly higher elevations of northern South America.
Regions of Africa nearest to the equator.
Parts of our warmest off continental state, Hawaii.
What's worse, is there really won't be many choices for places
to evacuate to. Making plans now, and starting ((Warm Buildings))
with some sort of their own ((Power Supplies)) for refuge, may be our
only hope. High buildings such as skyscrapers boarded up, and extra
insulation to keep in warmth, plus some sort of power supply, to run
heaters.
Running anything else won't be a good idea. The key here will be to conserve
any little bit of power we can get to stay warm. Lighting, computers,
anything
which is not necessary. Some amount of a computer will still be helpful, to
find
out when the storms have passed.
This earth will look like a giant freezer. It'll still be very cold, even
after the storms
have passed. We'll be forced to live on the snow and ice cover, and
temperatures
will remain below 0, even during the day. Food will be a big factor, even if
we
survive, there won't be much to eat. Only good thing that'll come out of it,
a lot
of disease will fade out.
Digging through ice, to find food will be a fact of life. At least it'll be
well preserved.
Southern places might be able to get out of the freezing marker, but
probably won't
see much over 32 Degrees. Moving south afterword, is probably going to be
the best
time to move south. Or north, depending which region you're in.
Mexico will still probably still not be a good idea, considering it's mostly
sand.
It'll probably sink and fall, as the ice melts, taking sand along with it.
Texas will
probably be a good idea. And any other place near the equator not made out
of
mostly sand.
The earth will take many thousands of years to melt..
But then, when things seem to be getting better for the human race.
There's a huge rock heading for earth (Armageddon) Further generations
ahead of us will have to worry about that yet.
Hopefully, the snow and ice cover will be so heavy, it'll last less as much
time as originally predicted. And melting much of the ice and snow..
This part is too complex for me to comprehend, so I'm not even making
a hack out of it.. Not even going to try.

At least, we have close to three decades or slightly more to prepare.
It gives at least some time, to prepare. If we act now, we might just be
able to push that timing to 50 - 100 years. But it is still going to happen.

I'm glad as hell, we're having a slightly mild season. I looked back, and
2004 and 2005 were probably some of the worst seasons we've seen so far.
The next time we get hit like that, will be worse.
In the last thirty years, we've actually become part of tornado alley here
in PA. It's no longer uncommon to see as many as ten tornadoes in one
tornado season.
Also, F0, F1, more common for this area. It'll start being F2 - F3.
I'm considering (July 14 2004, Campbeltown PA) to be a warning
for what's coming. I hope I'm not underestimating how bad it's going
to get in PA..
Especially since I live in PA..

Only thing I'll get good out of this, is I might be lucky to catch one
of the things on video or pictures.
Otherwise, if it's too close, I'll be hiding in a closet with my human lover
holding tightly onto Fievel.

:-) ;-)

Fievel. (Stuffed Animal Lover..) LOL

It'll get cold only if we park our Selene/moon at Earth L1, or perhaps
we should lose it altogether.

Otherwise, you should prepare yourself to sweat a whole lot more than
usual, and perhaps learn how to endurance swim.

~ BG

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
dakotatelephone...

snip


Considering that Australia used to be quite verdant in the area where now
only the vast outback exists, but climate change (either external, or
possibly due to widespread deforestation caused by the arrival of the
Aborigines around 40,000 years ago and the implementation of slash and
burn agricultural methods) turned its interior into a far harsher area to
live, that might be a overly-optimistic assessment of the situation.


The main reason that Australia has dried out is that we have moved north by
about 40° of latitude since separation with Antarctica. Mainland Australia
now straddles 30 latitude, the "desert belt" right round the globe.

Landy wrote:



"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
dakotatelephone...

snip


Considering that Australia used to be quite verdant in the area
where now only the vast outback exists, but climate change (either
external, or possibly due to widespread deforestation caused by
the arrival of the Aborigines around 40,000 years ago and the
implementation of slash and burn agricultural methods) turned its
interior into a far harsher area to live, that might be a
overly-optimistic assessment of the situation.


The main reason that Australia has dried out is that we have moved
north by about 40 of latitude since separation with Antarctica.
Mainland Australia now straddles 30 latitude, the "desert belt" right
round the globe.

That is absolutely correct. Aborigines were not present in Australia
when the sclerophyls evolved from the Gondwana forests!

You only have to get up high enough into the Eastern mountain ranges to
see the old vegetation regime which was once extant throughout the
continent. There are now very few places on the mainland where the
conditions are right for the Antarctic beech trees. I never fail to to
feel a sense of wonderment when I come across them in my wanderings in
the rainforest.


The problem is however, that global warming is raising the cloud line
in the mountains...




--

"BradGuth" wrote in message
...
On Aug 29, 10:22 am, "Fievel Mousekewitz Sr \(Not A CT'er\)"
wrote:
"BradGuth" wrote in message

...



On Aug 28, 4:43 pm, "jonathan" wrote:
"eyeball" wrote in message

...
On Aug 28, 10:21 am, BradGuth wrote:

I hear the sky is falling too.

Well, since I moved to Miami I've had Hurricane Andrew
(the most expensive storm is US history) pass forty miles
...south of me. Hurricane Wilma (the most powerful Atlantic
storm EVER) pass forty miles...north of me. And Hurricane
Katrina ( the deadliest storm in recent US history) pass
directly overhead.

And I got a very good taste of all three. So yes, I would
say the sky is indeed falling...literally...on my head.
And down here we can ...smell...that the last part of this
hurricane season, and all of next year is going to be
a couple more for the books.

Jonathan

Too bad you folks can't attribute any of that falling sky or global
warming trend to the 2e20 N/s worth of tidal interactions associated
with our Selene/moon.

If Earth wasn't getting tidal flexed by 55 cm, how much cooler might
our 98.5% fluid Earth get?

~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth

"Nobody wants to hear,, the sky is falling."
(Category 6)

If things keep going the way they are, the sky might literally be
falling.
I don't remember what that part of the atmosphere is called.
Hence, (The Day After Tomorrow.)
If I've studied it right though, it'll be both the northern, and southern
hemisphere.
It's not going to be like the (Day After Tomorrow)
If I've done my research right, mostly going byhttp://www.noaa.gov
it's not going to look like (The Day After Tomorrow.) That movie is off.
But not in the way people would hope. It's going to be worse, making a
very small stretch of land inhabitable. Anything near the equator which
is also decently above sea level.. High elevations near the equator will
be the only inhabitable places on earth.
This means, much of Mexico will be under water..
In the (Day After Tomorrow) they find refuge in Mexico.
With rising waters, this probably won't much be possible, because much
of Mexico isn't too far above sea level..
Where can we survive? Possibly higher elevations of northern South
America.
Regions of Africa nearest to the equator.
Parts of our warmest off continental state, Hawaii.
What's worse, is there really won't be many choices for places
to evacuate to. Making plans now, and starting ((Warm Buildings))
with some sort of their own ((Power Supplies)) for refuge, may be our
only hope. High buildings such as skyscrapers boarded up, and extra
insulation to keep in warmth, plus some sort of power supply, to run
heaters.
Running anything else won't be a good idea. The key here will be to
conserve
any little bit of power we can get to stay warm. Lighting, computers,
anything
which is not necessary. Some amount of a computer will still be helpful,
to
find
out when the storms have passed.
This earth will look like a giant freezer. It'll still be very cold, even
after the storms
have passed. We'll be forced to live on the snow and ice cover, and
temperatures
will remain below 0, even during the day. Food will be a big factor, even
if
we
survive, there won't be much to eat. Only good thing that'll come out of
it,
a lot
of disease will fade out.
Digging through ice, to find food will be a fact of life. At least it'll
be
well preserved.
Southern places might be able to get out of the freezing marker, but
probably won't
see much over 32 Degrees. Moving south afterword, is probably going to be
the best
time to move south. Or north, depending which region you're in.
Mexico will still probably still not be a good idea, considering it's
mostly
sand.
It'll probably sink and fall, as the ice melts, taking sand along with
it.
Texas will
probably be a good idea. And any other place near the equator not made
out
of
mostly sand.
The earth will take many thousands of years to melt..
But then, when things seem to be getting better for the human race.
There's a huge rock heading for earth (Armageddon) Further generations
ahead of us will have to worry about that yet.
Hopefully, the snow and ice cover will be so heavy, it'll last less as
much
time as originally predicted. And melting much of the ice and snow..
This part is too complex for me to comprehend, so I'm not even making
a hack out of it.. Not even going to try.

At least, we have close to three decades or slightly more to prepare.
It gives at least some time, to prepare. If we act now, we might just be
able to push that timing to 50 - 100 years. But it is still going to
happen.

I'm glad as hell, we're having a slightly mild season. I looked back, and
2004 and 2005 were probably some of the worst seasons we've seen so far.
The next time we get hit like that, will be worse.
In the last thirty years, we've actually become part of tornado alley
here
in PA. It's no longer uncommon to see as many as ten tornadoes in one
tornado season.
Also, F0, F1, more common for this area. It'll start being F2 - F3.
I'm considering (July 14 2004, Campbeltown PA) to be a warning
for what's coming. I hope I'm not underestimating how bad it's going
to get in PA..
Especially since I live in PA..

Only thing I'll get good out of this, is I might be lucky to catch one
of the things on video or pictures.
Otherwise, if it's too close, I'll be hiding in a closet with my human
lover
holding tightly onto Fievel.

:-) ;-)

Fievel. (Stuffed Animal Lover..) LOL

It'll get cold only if we park our Selene/moon at Earth L1, or perhaps
we should lose it altogether.

Otherwise, you should prepare yourself to sweat a whole lot more than
usual, and perhaps learn how to endurance swim.

~ BG


If I've got this right,,.. Too much heat in our seas, or sudden cold, will
through
it off balance. Causing the natural current to stop.
It will get really cold,,..

But not before it gets really warm first.

Fievel.

"Alan Erskine" wrote in message
...
"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
one...
This is worrying:
http://www.spacedaily.com/2006/08083....izf2g3n5.html
As the temperature rises, more of the suboceanic methane ice will melt,
which will up the methane in the atmosphere, which will cause it to
become warmer, which will cause more methane ice to melt...
The melting of methane ice is thought to be one of the factors
contributing to the Great Permian Extinction.

Pat

Yeah, but Pat; don't forget that there are no space images of the Arctic
and Antarctica from 50 years ago, let alone 250 years ago, or 1,000 years
ago - nobody knows how much of the sea ice existed back then. We've only
got figures from the past 100 years at most.

"Great Permian Extinction"? - millions of years ago? Long before people
started cutting down forests and burning coal, oil and natural gas. It's
cyclic - it has happened before and it will happen again; it's got nothing
to do with human activity. However, we have technology that can overcome
the difficulties experienced in the past - Victoria (my home state) is
about to build a water desalination plat - we'll never run low on drinking
water again; that couldn't have happened even 50 years ago.

Our species will survive quite well this time (if the so-called [and
self-appointed] 'experts' are correct). Don't worry; everything will be
fine - for us, our species in general and our planet as a whole.


Right!
It's happened like 5 times.
I hope we do find a way to survive it..
We rush things though,,..

I go by NOAA People..

Fievel.

"Eduard Groenstein" wrote in message
...
Landy wrote:



"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
dakotatelephone...

snip


Considering that Australia used to be quite verdant in the area
where now only the vast outback exists, but climate change (either
external, or possibly due to widespread deforestation caused by
the arrival of the Aborigines around 40,000 years ago and the
implementation of slash and burn agricultural methods) turned its
interior into a far harsher area to live, that might be a
overly-optimistic assessment of the situation.


The main reason that Australia has dried out is that we have moved
north by about 40 of latitude since separation with Antarctica.
Mainland Australia now straddles 30 latitude, the "desert belt" right
round the globe.

That is absolutely correct. Aborigines were not present in Australia
when the sclerophyls evolved from the Gondwana forests!

You only have to get up high enough into the Eastern mountain ranges to
see the old vegetation regime which was once extant throughout the
continent. There are now very few places on the mainland where the
conditions are right for the Antarctic beech trees. I never fail to to
feel a sense of wonderment when I come across them in my wanderings in
the rainforest.


The problem is however, that global warming is raising the cloud line
in the mountains...




--


Global warming can also be seen in some hurricanes.
As someone on here pointed out, even some of
the strongest hurricanes in the past, didn't have the size
of some that are hitting us now.
Eye walls being 10-40 miles or so, that's what was suppose
to be normal for a cat5..
Katrina's eye go into 100's of miles wide.
Hruuicanes use to be about 200 miles across.
Some of them have grown to over 400 miles across.
All as it will take, is our seas to stop spinning things up..
And everything will be under ice and snow.
We going to make that part of our atmosphere
disappear?
The one that's -150 Degress

I really don't think so.

Fievel.

snip
On Aug 30, 8:58*pm, "Alan Erskine" wrote:
Yeah, but Pat; don't forget that there are
no space images of the Arctic and Antarctica
from 50 years ago, let alone 250 years ago,
or 1,000 years ago -
nobody knows how much of the sea ice existed
back then. *We've only got figures from
the past 100 years at most.

Wrong.
There are several lines of evidence regarding
sea-ice distribution in the Arctic ocean and environs:
- sea-mammal fossil distribution
- ice-pushed raised beaches
- reports by European whalers and fishers from
as far back as 500 years ago
- sedimentary characteristics of the ocean bed
- etc.
Similarly for the Southern Ocean.

snip
Our species will survive quite well this time (if the so-called [and
self-appointed] 'experts' are correct). *Don't worry; everything will be
fine - for us, our species in general and our planet as a whole.

Try switching away from the rosy tint next time you order
spectacles.

- Daryl Krupa