I live in Tampere in southwestern Finland. A lot of laypeople from
North America and Central Europe seem to think Fennoscandia (=
Scandinavia + Finland) has a climate similar to that of Greenland,
that is, glaciers and icebergs everywhere and "dark all the time".

I'm wondering what US state or Canadian provice might have a climate
most similar to the climate in Southern Finland? Lightning conditions
are exactly the same as in Alaska, because, like Alaska, Fennoscandia
is (mostly) between the 60th and the 70th parallels. But Alaskan
winters are clearly colder than those of Fennoscandia. The average
temperature in Helsinki in January is -6.1 C and that of Anchorage is
-9.5 C. The same for July in Helsinki: +16.8 C, and Anchorage: +15.6
C. The same figures for Nome (central west coast of Alaska): -13.8 C,
and +10.8 C. For Trondheim (central west coast of Norway, on the same
latitude as Nome): -3.1 C, and +14.3 C. Greenland is nothing like
Alaska or Fennoscandia. Average temperatures for January and July in
Qaqortoq on the southern tip of Greenland (about 60th parallel) are
+8-9 C and -10-11 C, respectively. Let's consider Siberia (Yakutsk,
62. Northern latitude, slightly more northerly than Helsinki and
Anchorage): January average, -42.5 C; July average, +19.0 C). Huge
variations.

The climatically most similar place to Fennoscandia in the world seems
to be Alaska, but Alaska is much more mountaneous. Fennoscandia only
has the Keel range, which is about 2500 meters high at best. The
climate in Central Alaska is also much more continental than that in
Central Fennoscandia. July in Oulu (on the northeast coast of Gulf of
Bothnia) is as warm as in Fairbanks (+15.7 C), but winters in
Fairbanks are about 4-5 degrees colder, on average (about -18-19 C in
Fairbanks).

Fennoscandian climate belongs almost completely to type D in Köppen's
classification (except for some Southern Norwegian coastal regions
where the average temperature is slightly above 0 C in January). The
average temperature of the coldest month is below 0 C and the average
temperature of the warmest month is above +10 C. Rainfall is evenly
spread throughout the year. Vegetation is coniferous-mixed forest
typical of cold temperate climates. There is tundra (type E) only in
the very far north.

Interestingly, Alaska has only about 600 000 inhabinants in an area
covering about 1.5 million square kms. Fennoscandian total population
is 19 million (Finland, Norway, Sweden) occupying an area of about 1.1
million square kms.

- mj

Markku Jantunen wrote:
I live in Tampere in southwestern Finland. A lot of laypeople from
North America and Central Europe seem to think Fennoscandia (=
Scandinavia + Finland) has a climate similar to that of Greenland,
that is, glaciers and icebergs everywhere and "dark all the time".

I'm wondering what US state or Canadian provice might have a climate
most similar to the climate in Southern Finland? Lightning conditions
are exactly the same as in Alaska, because, like Alaska, Fennoscandia
is (mostly) between the 60th and the 70th parallels. But Alaskan
winters are clearly colder than those of Fennoscandia. The average
temperature in Helsinki in January is -6.1 C and that of Anchorage is
-9.5 C. The same for July in Helsinki: +16.8 C, and Anchorage: +15.6
C. The same figures for Nome (central west coast of Alaska): -13.8 C,
and +10.8 C. For Trondheim (central west coast of Norway, on the same
latitude as Nome): -3.1 C, and +14.3 C. Greenland is nothing like
Alaska or Fennoscandia. Average temperatures for January and July in
Qaqortoq on the southern tip of Greenland (about 60th parallel) are
+8-9 C and -10-11 C, respectively. Let's consider Siberia (Yakutsk,
62. Northern latitude, slightly more northerly than Helsinki and
Anchorage): January average, -42.5 C; July average, +19.0 C). Huge
variations.

The climatically most similar place to Fennoscandia in the world seems
to be Alaska, but Alaska is much more mountaneous. Fennoscandia only
has the Keel range, which is about 2500 meters high at best. The
climate in Central Alaska is also much more continental than that in
Central Fennoscandia. July in Oulu (on the northeast coast of Gulf of
Bothnia) is as warm as in Fairbanks (+15.7 C), but winters in
Fairbanks are about 4-5 degrees colder, on average (about -18-19 C in
Fairbanks).

Fennoscandian climate belongs almost completely to type D in Köppen's
classification (except for some Southern Norwegian coastal regions
where the average temperature is slightly above 0 C in January). The
average temperature of the coldest month is below 0 C and the average
temperature of the warmest month is above +10 C. Rainfall is evenly
spread throughout the year. Vegetation is coniferous-mixed forest
typical of cold temperate climates. There is tundra (type E) only in
the very far north.

Interestingly, Alaska has only about 600 000 inhabinants in an area
covering about 1.5 million square kms. Fennoscandian total population
is 19 million (Finland, Norway, Sweden) occupying an area of about 1.1
million square kms.

I'm not sure why that's interesting

I think the Upper Peninsula of Michigan has a climate similar
to Finland's, although a LOT snowier given the lake effect in
the winter. But the lake also keeps it warm-ish. And in fact,
many Finns have settled there after leaving Scandofinlandia. I
think your analysis of Alaska being most similar is correct.

BTW, Finland *IS* dark, at least in October which is when I
visited my sister in Tampere (she lived on Hallituskatu) back
in '92. And it was snowing, too.

Scott

"Scott" wrote in message


Markku Jantunen wrote:
I live in Tampere in southwestern Finland. A lot of laypeople from
North America and Central Europe seem to think Fennoscandia (=
Scandinavia + Finland) has a climate similar to that of Greenland,
that is, glaciers and icebergs everywhere and "dark all the time".

I think the Upper Peninsula of Michigan has a climate similar
to Finland's, although a LOT snowier given the lake effect in
the winter. But the lake also keeps it warm-ish. And in fact,
many Finns have settled there after leaving Scandofinlandia. I
think your analysis of Alaska being most similar is correct.

Why is warm winter weather identified with water?

Yes there is a connection but it is atmospheric over the water. Finland
is getting the same sort of heat supplied to Britain:

Warm low pressure activity revolves about the stable anticycloninc
Azores high. This means it moves west in tropical and sub tropical
regions and east in higher latitudes. I imagine it is the same in the
Pacific.

While water is the supreme chemical for temperature control in physics,
just having a lump of it near by does nothing without the circulating
agencies.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Scott wrote in message . ..
Interestingly, Alaska has only about 600 000 inhabinants in an area
covering about 1.5 million square kms. Fennoscandian total population
is 19 million (Finland, Norway, Sweden) occupying an area of about 1.1
million square kms.

I'm not sure why that's interesting

The difference in population density is enormous in spite of similar
northerly location. I think most North Americans would find that fact
striking. They wouldn't expect a place as far in the North as Alaska
to be more heavily populated than Florida.

I think the Upper Peninsula of Michigan has a climate similar
to Finland's, although a LOT snowier given the lake effect in
the winter. But the lake also keeps it warm-ish.

So, the Great Lakes keep the air warmer there in the winter and
increase precipitation because of the mixing of air masses
warmed and moistened by the lakes and cold air masses coming from
elsewhere. Fenno-Scandia similarly affected by westerlies blowing
from the North Atlantic. Westerlies are typical of all seasons in
Finland and Scandinavia. (But I do like it if it winds long enough
from the Southeast in the summer.)

It seems true that Upper Peninsula of Michigan is snowier than Finland.
I browsed a map of UP and checked out the rainfall statistics of various
places there and compared the numbers with those of Finnish locations.
Source: www.worldclimate.com/

And in fact, many Finns have settled there after leaving
Scandofinlandia.

This is true. Do you have Finns in your family?

I think your analysis of Alaska being most similar is correct.

Well, it seems to be that way, although I mentioned the fact that
Alaska is much more mountaneous than Scandinavia and Finland.

BTW, Finland *IS* dark, at least in October which is when I
visited my sister in Tampere (she lived on Hallituskatu) back

(I know the street, of course. I live in Hervanta, the southernmost
district of the city. Ever been there?)

in '92. And it was snowing, too.

Subpolar latitudes get the same amount of daylight per year
as all other latitudes (seems intuitively correct). It's
just distributed differently among the seasons.

Scott

- mj

"Michael Mcneil" wrote in message news:ca070d00b44ddc54fa5282c9ba03354a.45219@mygat e.mailgate.org...
While water is the supreme chemical for temperature control in physics,
just having a lump of it near by does nothing without the circulating
agencies.

This is true, but doesn't the area around The Great Lakes have
circulating agencies, too: convenction above the lakes in the
autumn causing local winds? Also, as wind direction varies,
warm air gets transported to all shores.

- mj

"Markku Jantunen" wrote in message
om

This is true. Do you have Finns in your family?

no but a lot of my father's side of the family are sleeping with the
fishes.

I think your analysis of Alaska being most similar is correct.

The similarity with Florida is greater. They beat each other with sticks
when in the sauna.

Subpolar latitudes get the same amount of daylight per year. It's
just distributed differently among the seasons.

You can read a paper in the garden in the middle of the night that far
north. If you can distinguish betwen newsprint and midges that is.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

(Markku Jantunen) wrote in message . com...
Scott wrote in message . ..
Interestingly, Alaska has only about 600 000 inhabinants in an area
covering about 1.5 million square kms. Fennoscandian total population
is 19 million (Finland, Norway, Sweden) occupying an area of about 1.1
million square kms.

I'm not sure why that's interesting

The difference in population density is enormous in spite of similar
northerly location. I think most North Americans would find that fact
striking. They wouldn't expect a place as far in the North as Alaska
to be more heavily populated than Florida.

In fact, Texas is a much better point of refefence. Texas has roughly
the same area and population as Scandinavia and Finland put together.

- mj

In article ,
Markku Jantunen wrote:
"Michael Mcneil" wrote in message
news:ca070d00b44ddc54fa5282c9ba03354a.45219@myga te.mailgate.org...
While water is the supreme chemical for temperature control in physics,
just having a lump of it near by does nothing without the circulating
agencies.

This is true, but doesn't the area around The Great Lakes have
circulating agencies, too: convenction above the lakes in the
autumn causing local winds? Also, as wind direction varies,
warm air gets transported to all shores.

The upper Great Lakes area has one of the highest seasonal
cycles in the world. (High plains US and Canada, to the NW,
are more extreme, as is east-central Siberia -- areas further
from water.)

The moderating effect of the water only lasts until the lakes
freeze. If it's a cold year, that'll be in January. Once the
lakes freeze, the temperatures in the vicinity will drop like
a rock. Winds seldom vary equally to all directions; they're
typically out of the west-northwest. So the north shore of
Superior (Canada) sees little moderating effect from that lake.


--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Robert Grumbine wrote:
In article ,
Markku Jantunen wrote:

"Michael Mcneil" wrote in message
news:ca070d00b44ddc54fa5282c9ba03354a.45219@myg ate.mailgate.org...

While water is the supreme chemical for temperature control in physics,
just having a lump of it near by does nothing without the circulating
agencies.

This is true, but doesn't the area around The Great Lakes have
circulating agencies, too: convenction above the lakes in the
autumn causing local winds? Also, as wind direction varies,
warm air gets transported to all shores.


The upper Great Lakes area has one of the highest seasonal
cycles in the world. (High plains US and Canada, to the NW,
are more extreme, as is east-central Siberia -- areas further
from water.)

The moderating effect of the water only lasts until the lakes
freeze. If it's a cold year, that'll be in January. Once the
lakes freeze, the temperatures in the vicinity will drop like
a rock. Winds seldom vary equally to all directions; they're
typically out of the west-northwest. So the north shore of
Superior (Canada) sees little moderating effect from that lake.

Moderation works year-round. The Great Lakes DEFINITELY
cool the surrounding areas in the summer, too. And the
water never gets warm enough to curb that effect.

Scott

(Robert Grumbine) wrote in message ...
This is true, but doesn't the area around The Great Lakes have
circulating agencies, too: convenction above the lakes in the
autumn causing local winds? Also, as wind direction varies,
warm air gets transported to all shores.

The upper Great Lakes area has one of the highest seasonal
cycles in the world. (High plains US and Canada, to the NW,
are more extreme, as is east-central Siberia -- areas further
from water.)

The moderating effect of the water only lasts until the lakes
freeze. If it's a cold year, that'll be in January. Once the
lakes freeze, the temperatures in the vicinity will drop like
a rock.

The following are the average monthly temperatures in Marquette,
Michigan, located on the southern shore of Lake Superior:

Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Year
°C -7.8 -6.8 -1.9 4.3 10.2 15.2 19.2 18.6 14.2 8.6 1.6 -5.0 5.8
°F 18.0 19.8 28.6 39.7 50.4 59.4 66.6 65.5 57.6 47.5 34.9 23.0 42.4

Source: www.worldclimate.com/

It doesn't look as if the temperatures in the vicinity of the lakes
drop like a rock, particularly if, as you say, the lakes freeze in
January if it's a cold year. In the above Oct-Nov=7.0, Nov-Dec=6.6,
and Dec-Jan=2.8.

Winds seldom vary equally to all directions; they're typically out
of the west-northwest. So the north shore of Superior (Canada) sees
little moderating effect from that lake.

Let's see. Marathon, Ontario, Canada, the north shore of Lake Superior:

Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Year
°C -13.9 -11.4 -6.2 1.5 7.1 10.9 13.7 14.5 10.8 5.9 -1.4 -9.6 1.9
°F 7.0 11.5 20.8 34.7 44.8 51.6 56.7 58.1 51.4 42.6 29.5 14.7 35.4

Again taken from www.worldclimate.com/

Now let's calculate deviations of monthly average temperatures from
the yearly average temperature for both towns:

Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
Marathon: 15.8 13.3 8.1 0.4 5.2 9.0 11.8 12.6 8.9 4.0 3.3 11.5
Marquette: 13.6 12.6 7.7 1.5 4.4 9.4 13.6 12.8 8.4 2.8 4.2 10.8
Diff.: 2.2 0.7 0.4 -1.1 0.8 -0.4 -1.8 -0.2 0.5 1.2 -0.9 0.7

December is relatively colder in Marquette.
January is relatively colder in Marathon.
February is relatively colder in Marathon.
March is relatively colder in Marathon.

June is relatively warmer in Marquette.
July is relatively warmer in Marquette.
August is relatively warmer in Marquette.
September is relatively warmer in Marathon.

I don't have the time and the inclination to calculate these
figures for a representative sample of locations on both shores,
but I tried to choose both places so as to minimize the effect
of local factors such as elevation or nearby landmasses.

I guess you're right about the north shore being less affected
by the lake at least in the winter. But the south shore seems
to be the relatively warmer place, that is being less cooled
by the lake in the summer. Perhaps variations, possibly seasonal,
in prevailing wind direction complicate the situation.

- mj