"Mike1" wrote in message
...
"Alastair McDonald" k

It is optimism that is going to destroy us. Even Keeling is optimistic,
and so he loses the power of his arguments. The Greenland ice
sheet is now doomed...


Uh huh. Sure it is.

You could carpet all of Greenland with space-heaters positioned a foot
apart, and it'd still take a thousand years to melt.

It is not the sunshine that is melting it. The sunshine hasn't changed.
The melting is caused by condensing water vapour. A gram of water
vapour has twice the latent heat of that needed to melt a gram of ice.

The second point is that as it starts to melt, the surface is lowered. This
reduction in altitude leads to warming of the ambient temperature, and
so the melting will accelerate. This makes it dificult to judge how long it
will take for it all to melt.

The third point is that, no matter how long it takes to melt, in order to
stop it melting we would have to lower global temperatures below those
of today, because at the current temperatures the ice is melting.

(Is is just me, or has anyone else noticed that nothing intelligent has
*ever* appeared out of freeserve.co.uk? -- Is it like British AOL?)

You could describe Freeserve as a British AOL, but it is now owned
by the French company Wanadoo. -- An EOL?

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that how all the clowns on this
newsgroup, with the exception of David Ball, post from the US?

Cheers, Alastair.

In message , Alastair McDonald
k writes

"SwimJim" wrote in message
. com...
Psalm 110 wrote in message
...
http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2...cal/news02.txt

[deletions]

Among scientists, global warming is no longer a question, said
Keeling.
[Snip]
Only the United States is out of touch with the reality, he said.
Politicians, the media and the general public simply haven't decided
that global warming is real, or that it's dangerous.

He should have said "only the current Presidential Administration in
the United States is out of touch with reality" to be a little more
accurate. A lot of us here in the United States are NOT out of touch
with reality.

I think he was right about the general public, but wrong to confine it to
the US. Currently on the uk.sci.weather news group I seem to be the
only poster who recognises that the this year's flooding and last year's
record temperatures in the UK are symptoms of anthropogenic global
warming. The professional meteorologists, although accepting it is
part of global warming still cannot make up their minds that it is due to
carbon dioxide.

It is too early to say if these individual events are a real marker of
climate change or just pure bad luck. Increased frequency of extreme
events will eventually become compelling evidence for GW, but a small
number of unusual events is indicative but not sufficient proof of
climate change.

There have been similar localised catastrophic floods in the past.
Climate is the long term trend. The climate is changing gradually on a
time scale of decades or longer - that is what makes it so hard for
myopic politicians to see past their next election.

But the UK is fundamentally *different* to the USA in that the first
mainstream political party to recognise GW as a serious issue was on the
right, namely Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher's Conservative party and
so there is reasonable all party consensus among most UK politicians
(apart from the extreme ultra-violet right wing lunatic fringe).

The problem is that after the BSE (& WMD) fiascos the general public in
the UK no longer trust any government announcements on anything.

In the US the issue is much more political - the Republican dogma,
sponsored as it is by big oil and coal is that the environment is there
to be destroyed.

It is optimism that is going to destroy us. Even Keeling is optimistic,
and so he loses the power of his arguments. The Greenland ice
sheet is now doomed, (unless we greatly reduce the amount of
CO2 in the atmosphere) but still we go on hoping it is not true, or
won't happen in our life time. When we come to our senses, if we
ever do, it will be too late :-(.

Only if you live less than 100m above sea level...

Regards,
--
Martin Brown

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:04:34 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

It is too early to say if these individual events are a real marker of
climate change or just pure bad luck. Increased frequency of extreme
events will eventually become compelling evidence for GW, but a small
number of unusual events is indicative but not sufficient proof of
climate change.

No. It is not too early. The CO2 content has risen. CO2 retains ENERGY
that would otherwise escape the planet's weather systems. The weather
systems, having more energetic are now doing more energetic things
NOW. As the CO2 continues to rise there will be even more energy to
supercharge the weather systems and there will be even more energetic
weather chaos.

CO2 accumulation is about ENERGY OVERLOAD, not "warming" (which is a
partial side-effect of supercharging the weather systems.)

"Alastair McDonald" k wrote in message ...
"SwimJim" wrote in message
om...
Psalm 110 wrote in message
. ..
http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2...cal/news02.txt

[deletions]

Among scientists, global warming is no longer a question, said
Keeling.

"I've even come to accept it in the last five or six years," he said.
"The change has been greater than what would naturally occur."

"A large part of the educated world is pretty concerned," said
Keeling, who has a home in Hamilton. "The European community and Japan
are very concerned."

Only the United States is out of touch with the reality, he said.
Politicians, the media and the general public simply haven't decided
that global warming is real, or that it's dangerous.

He should have said "only the current Presidential Administration in
the United States is out of touch with reality" to be a little more
accurate. A lot of us here in the United States are NOT out of touch
with reality.

I think he was right about the general public, but wrong to confine it to
the US. [remainder of paragraph deleted]

My problem with the comment was that it really was about viewpoint of
the political party in power, and because of that it denigrated the
awareness of approximately 50% of the country (give or take a few
percentage points). While there are sectors of the general public
that are out of touch with reality on this, there are also sectors of
the general public that are acutely attuned to it.

Gas prices being where they're going, all of sudden the general public
is going to have to start paying attention.

It is optimism that is going to destroy us. Even Keeling is optimistic,
and so he loses the power of his arguments. The Greenland ice
sheet is now doomed, (unless we greatly reduce the amount of
CO2 in the atmosphere) but still we go on hoping it is not true, or
won't happen in our life time. When we come to our senses, if we
ever do, it will be too late :-(.

Pessimism, on the other hand, can be perceived as doomsaying (or sold
as such by those with alternate views).

I propose to form the Society of the Steaming Amphibians (to avoid a
term that can be used in a derogatory fashion toward a particular
nation's citizens). The Society of the Steaming Amphibians will be
formed of those who know that we're in a pot of water that's getting
warmer, and we want to figure out a way to jump out before it's too
late.

Want to be a charter member?

Jim Acker

------------------------------------
SwimJim
(formerly James G. Acker)


The great tragedy of science -- the
slaying of a beautiful hypothesis
by an ugly fact. - Thomas Huxley
------------------------------------

"SwimJim" wrote in message
om...
"Alastair McDonald" k wrote
in message ...
"SwimJim" wrote in message
om...


I think he was right about the general public, but wrong to confine it to
the US. [remainder of paragraph deleted]

My problem with the comment was that it really was about viewpoint of
the political party in power, and because of that it denigrated the
awareness of approximately 50% of the country (give or take a few
percentage points). While there are sectors of the general public
that are out of touch with reality on this, there are also sectors of
the general public that are acutely attuned to it.

I think we agree. You are saying don't judge all Americans by the policies
of the President. I am saying don't judge all British people by the
policies of our Prime Minister. There are a lot of people here in
Britain who do not see GW as a bigger threat than international
terrorism. In fact many are convinced that CO2 is not causing GW,
and that it is just a natural phenomnon which will cure itself.
In both countries we are split 50/50 right and left, You have a right
wing government we have a left wing one. But to get whole
hearted action we need to persuade the 50% right wingers that
they are wrong. They are not the type of people who change their
minds!

Gas prices being where they're going, all of sudden the general public
is going to have to start paying attention.

It is optimism that is going to destroy us. Even Keeling is optimistic,
and so he loses the power of his arguments. The Greenland ice
sheet is now doomed, (unless we greatly reduce the amount of
CO2 in the atmosphere) but still we go on hoping it is not true, or
won't happen in our life time. When we come to our senses, if we
ever do, it will be too late :-(.

Pessimism, on the other hand, can be perceived as doomsaying (or sold
as such by those with alternate views).

That is one reason that it is such a difficult message to sell. People are
convinced by emotion, not logic. The answer is to scare people, as was
proposed by Stephen Schneider, but it seems that the current group
of scientists don't have the guts for that!

I propose to form the Society of the Steaming Amphibians (to avoid a
term that can be used in a derogatory fashion toward a particular
nation's citizens). The Society of the Steaming Amphibians will be
formed of those who know that we're in a pot of water that's getting
warmer, and we want to figure out a way to jump out before it's too
late.

Are we going to hop out of the pan, or just be hopping mad?


Want to be a charter member?

I am certainly in favour of the aims, but I am not sure about the name. It
doen't really jump out at you, does it ;-?

Cheers, Alastair.

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:11:51 +0100, "Alastair McDonald"
k wrote:

You have a right
wing government we have a left wing one.

ONLY bu comparison. USA is sa far post the line into the right wing
red zone that it makes domineering governments like yous look liberal
by comparison.

(SwimJim) wrote in message . com...
Psalm 110 wrote in message . ..
http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2...cal/news02.txt

[deletions]

Among scientists, global warming is no longer a question, said
Keeling.

"I've even come to accept it in the last five or six years," he said.
"The change has been greater than what would naturally occur."

"A large part of the educated world is pretty concerned," said
Keeling, who has a home in Hamilton. "The European community and Japan
are very concerned."

Only the United States is out of touch with the reality, he said.
Politicians, the media and the general public simply haven't decided
that global warming is real, or that it's dangerous.

He should have said "only the current Presidential Administration in
the United States is out of touch with reality" to be a little more
accurate. A lot of us here in the United States are NOT out of touch
with reality.

Jim, the trouble iis that those Americans who are in touch with
global warming reality are out of touch with political power.
Got a Kalashnikov? ;-)

In article ,
says...

(SwimJim) wrote in message
. com...
Psalm 110 wrote in message
. ..
http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2...cal/news02.txt

[deletions]

Among scientists, global warming is no longer a question, said
Keeling.

"I've even come to accept it in the last five or six years," he said.
"The change has been greater than what would naturally occur."

"A large part of the educated world is pretty concerned," said
Keeling, who has a home in Hamilton. "The European community and Japan
are very concerned."

Only the United States is out of touch with the reality, he said.
Politicians, the media and the general public simply haven't decided
that global warming is real, or that it's dangerous.

He should have said "only the current Presidential Administration in
the United States is out of touch with reality" to be a little more
accurate. A lot of us here in the United States are NOT out of touch
with reality.

Jim, the trouble iis that those Americans who are in touch with
global warming reality are out of touch with political power.

I tried that one for several Presidential campaigns. Didn't work.
We even tried to form a new party (remember the Citizens Party?).

Got a Kalashnikov? ;-)

Well, as we see recently, those don't do well against Marine snipers.
They can get you from 200 yards away (or a grassy knoll)...

--
Eric Swanson --- E-mail address: e_swanson(at)skybest.com :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------

On 19 Aug 2004 07:59:35 -0700, (SwimJim)
wrote:

He should have said "only the current Presidential Administration in
the United States is out of touch with reality" to be a little more
accurate. A lot of us here in the United States are NOT out of touch
with reality.

Jim Acker

There are daily poster HERE who are out of touch.

Psalm 110 wrote:

out of touch.