On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:06:59 +0100, "Alastair McDonald"
k wrote:


"SwimJim" wrote in message
. com...
Psalm 110 wrote in message
...
http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2...cal/news02.txt

[deletions]

Among scientists, global warming is no longer a question, said
Keeling.

"I've even come to accept it in the last five or six years," he said.
"The change has been greater than what would naturally occur."

"A large part of the educated world is pretty concerned," said
Keeling, who has a home in Hamilton. "The European community and Japan
are very concerned."

Only the United States is out of touch with the reality, he said.
Politicians, the media and the general public simply haven't decided
that global warming is real, or that it's dangerous.

He should have said "only the current Presidential Administration in
the United States is out of touch with reality" to be a little more
accurate. A lot of us here in the United States are NOT out of touch
with reality.

I think he was right about the general public, but wrong to confine it to
the US. Currently on the uk.sci.weather news group I seem to be the
only poster who recognises that the this year's flooding and last year's
record temperatures in the UK are symptoms of anthropogenic global
warming. The professional meteorologists, although accepting it is
part of global warming still cannot make up their minds that it is due to
carbon dioxide.

Please offer some definitive proof of this. As I've told you
repeatedly, individual weather events never have a single cause. If GW
is having an effect, you should have no trouble providing a clear
scientific basis for it. I'd be particularly interested in how you
feel GW and CO2 produced the excessive rain.

"David Ball" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:06:59 +0100, "Alastair McDonald"
k wrote:


"SwimJim" wrote in message
. com...
Psalm 110 wrote in message
...
http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2...cal/news02.txt

[deletions]

Among scientists, global warming is no longer a question, said
Keeling.

"I've even come to accept it in the last five or six years," he said.
"The change has been greater than what would naturally occur."

"A large part of the educated world is pretty concerned," said
Keeling, who has a home in Hamilton. "The European community and Japan
are very concerned."

Only the United States is out of touch with the reality, he said.
Politicians, the media and the general public simply haven't decided
that global warming is real, or that it's dangerous.

He should have said "only the current Presidential Administration in
the United States is out of touch with reality" to be a little more
accurate. A lot of us here in the United States are NOT out of touch
with reality.

I think he was right about the general public, but wrong to confine it to
the US. Currently on the uk.sci.weather news group I seem to be the
only poster who recognises that the this year's flooding and last year's
record temperatures in the UK are symptoms of anthropogenic global
warming. The professional meteorologists, although accepting it is
part of global warming still cannot make up their minds that it is due to
carbon dioxide.

Please offer some definitive proof of this. As I've told you
repeatedly, individual weather events never have a single cause. If GW
is having an effect, you should have no trouble providing a clear
scientific basis for it. I'd be particularly interested in how you
feel GW and CO2 produced the excessive rain.

Jim,

And it is not just in the UK that weathermen are out of touch with reality. It
is true in Canada too!

Dave,

From a weatherman's POV the moist air rose from sea level to pass
over the Bodmin Moor, and the cooling caused the water vapour to
condense and fall as rain. The heavy rain on the moor was funneled
down by the river through a narrow gorge, which it had cut into the
cliffs. Te gorge was the site of a pretty fishing village. The flash flood
was impeded by a bridge over the river above the village. A small lake
formed upstread of the bridge which eventually gave way. When this
happend the surge of water burst the banks of the river and damaged
some of the building in the village.

From a climatologist's point of view, global warming has caused higher
sea surface temperatures which resulted in a greater frequency of hurricanes
during this season. Moeover, the warmer SST allowed a dying hurricane
to cross the Atlantic without losing its moisture. When Bonnie reached
Cornwall it deposited its remaining load, which was heavy enough to
bring down a road briidge. Basically, to put it in climatic terms, more
warming means more evaporation which means heavier rainfall.

Ten years ago British scientists were predicting more severe weather
for Britain due to global warming. We saw it two years ago and we are
seeing it again this year, not just in southern England but also in northern
Scotland where thre have been two incidents of motorist having to be
rescued from vehicles in flash flooding.

Of course you do not accept what I have written. But I thought I should
explain it for those who can understand these things. So for you Dave,
all I have got to say is "Now **** off!"

Cheers, Alastair.

In message , Alastair McDonald
k writes
"David Ball" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:06:59 +0100, "Alastair McDonald"
k wrote:


"SwimJim" wrote in message
. com...
Psalm 110 wrote in message
...
http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2...cal/news02.txt

[deletions]

Among scientists, global warming is no longer a question, said
Keeling.

"I've even come to accept it in the last five or six years," he said.
"The change has been greater than what would naturally occur."

"A large part of the educated world is pretty concerned," said
Keeling, who has a home in Hamilton. "The European community and Japan
are very concerned."

Only the United States is out of touch with the reality, he said.
Politicians, the media and the general public simply haven't decided
that global warming is real, or that it's dangerous.

He should have said "only the current Presidential Administration in
the United States is out of touch with reality" to be a little more
accurate. A lot of us here in the United States are NOT out of touch
with reality.

I think he was right about the general public, but wrong to confine it to
the US. Currently on the uk.sci.weather news group I seem to be the
only poster who recognises that the this year's flooding and last year's
record temperatures in the UK are symptoms of anthropogenic global
warming. The professional meteorologists, although accepting it is
part of global warming still cannot make up their minds that it is due to
carbon dioxide.

Please offer some definitive proof of this. As I've told you
repeatedly, individual weather events never have a single cause. If GW
is having an effect, you should have no trouble providing a clear
scientific basis for it. I'd be particularly interested in how you
feel GW and CO2 produced the excessive rain.

Jim,

And it is not just in the UK that weathermen are out of touch with reality. It
is true in Canada too!

Dave,

From a weatherman's POV the moist air rose from sea level to pass
over the Bodmin Moor, and the cooling caused the water vapour to
condense and fall as rain. The heavy rain on the moor was funneled
down by the river through a narrow gorge, which it had cut into the
cliffs. Te gorge was the site of a pretty fishing village. The flash flood
was impeded by a bridge over the river above the village. A small lake
formed upstread of the bridge which eventually gave way. When this
happend the surge of water burst the banks of the river and damaged
some of the building in the village.

From a climatologist's point of view, global warming has caused higher
sea surface temperatures which resulted in a greater frequency of hurricanes
during this season. Moeover, the warmer SST allowed a dying hurricane
to cross the Atlantic without losing its moisture. When Bonnie reached
Cornwall it deposited its remaining load, which was heavy enough to
bring down a road briidge. Basically, to put it in climatic terms, more
warming means more evaporation which means heavier rainfall.


It has actually been a relatively quiet hurricane season so far this
year. There is nothing at all unusual about hurricane remnants reaching
the British Isles and dumping very large amounts of rain. This has
happened from time to time throughout the historical record. It has
nothing to do with warmer sea surface temperatures (which I agree are
present). All it takes is for the tropical air associated with a dying
hurricane to get far enough north to get picked up by the mid-latitude
westerlies.


Ten years ago British scientists were predicting more severe weather
for Britain due to global warming. We saw it two years ago and we are
seeing it again this year, not just in southern England but also in northern
Scotland where thre have been two incidents of motorist having to be
rescued from vehicles in flash flooding.

The events of the past week in the UK are not unprecedented. Flash
floods in the SW have happened before. Landslides in Scotland happen
from time to time. Glen Ogle, where this week's landslides occurred, has
a history of such events. The railway which used to run through the glen
suffered from these.

Of course you do not accept what I have written. But I thought I should
explain it for those who can understand these things. So for you Dave,
all I have got to say is "Now **** off!"

Global warming has occurred and is continuing to increase. Therefore,
all weather that occurs now (severe and benign) is occurring in a
globally warmed environment. If the floods and landslides in some parts
of the British Isles this week are a direct result of global warming
then the largely fine weather in other parts (such as this part of
Buckinghamshire) must also be a direct result of global warming. The
reality must be very much more complicated than this simplistic
black/white scenario.

Being abusive to someone with an opinion different to yours does you no
credit, Alastair. Everyone is entitled to express their opinions. Those
who can back their opinions with good scientific evidence will have the
most credibility but abusiveness adds nothing to anyone's argument.


Norman.
(delete "thisbit" twice to e-mail)
--
Norman Lynagh Weather Consultancy
Chalfont St Giles
England

"Norman Lynagh" wrote in message
...
In message , Alastair McDonald
k writes
"David Ball" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:06:59 +0100, "Alastair McDonald"
k wrote:


"SwimJim" wrote in message
. com...
Psalm 110 wrote in message
...
http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2...cal/news02.txt

[deletions]

Among scientists, global warming is no longer a question, said
Keeling.

"I've even come to accept it in the last five or six years," he
said.
"The change has been greater than what would naturally occur."

"A large part of the educated world is pretty concerned," said
Keeling, who has a home in Hamilton. "The European community and
Japan
are very concerned."

Only the United States is out of touch with the reality, he said.
Politicians, the media and the general public simply haven't decided
that global warming is real, or that it's dangerous.

He should have said "only the current Presidential Administration in
the United States is out of touch with reality" to be a little more
accurate. A lot of us here in the United States are NOT out of touch
with reality.

I think he was right about the general public, but wrong to confine it
to
the US. Currently on the uk.sci.weather news group I seem to be the
only poster who recognises that the this year's flooding and last year's
record temperatures in the UK are symptoms of anthropogenic global
warming. The professional meteorologists, although accepting it is
part of global warming still cannot make up their minds that it is due
to
carbon dioxide.

Please offer some definitive proof of this. As I've told you
repeatedly, individual weather events never have a single cause. If GW
is having an effect, you should have no trouble providing a clear
scientific basis for it. I'd be particularly interested in how you
feel GW and CO2 produced the excessive rain.

Jim,

And it is not just in the UK that weathermen are out of touch with reality.
It
is true in Canada too!

Dave,

From a weatherman's POV the moist air rose from sea level to pass
over the Bodmin Moor, and the cooling caused the water vapour to
condense and fall as rain. The heavy rain on the moor was funneled
down by the river through a narrow gorge, which it had cut into the
cliffs. Te gorge was the site of a pretty fishing village. The flash
flood
was impeded by a bridge over the river above the village. A small lake
formed upstread of the bridge which eventually gave way. When this
happend the surge of water burst the banks of the river and damaged
some of the building in the village.

From a climatologist's point of view, global warming has caused higher
sea surface temperatures which resulted in a greater frequency of
hurricanes
during this season. Moeover, the warmer SST allowed a dying hurricane
to cross the Atlantic without losing its moisture. When Bonnie reached
Cornwall it deposited its remaining load, which was heavy enough to
bring down a road briidge. Basically, to put it in climatic terms, more
warming means more evaporation which means heavier rainfall.


It has actually been a relatively quiet hurricane season so far this
year. There is nothing at all unusual about hurricane remnants reaching
the British Isles and dumping very large amounts of rain. This has
happened from time to time throughout the historical record. It has
nothing to do with warmer sea surface temperatures (which I agree are
present). All it takes is for the tropical air associated with a dying
hurricane to get far enough north to get picked up by the mid-latitude
westerlies.

It will always be possible to explain away any event caused by global
warming as due to the myriad of other effects which cause it. Let's
face it , no one is saying that global warming will bring unnatural effects.

Ten years ago British scientists were predicting more severe weather
for Britain due to global warming. We saw it two years ago and we are
seeing it again this year, not just in southern England but also in
northern
Scotland where thre have been two incidents of motorist having to be
rescued from vehicles in flash flooding.

The events of the past week in the UK are not unprecedented. Flash
floods in the SW have happened before. Landslides in Scotland happen
from time to time. Glen Ogle, where this week's landslides occurred, has
a history of such events. The railway which used to run through the glen
suffered from these.

Of course you do not accept what I have written. But I thought I should
explain it for those who can understand these things. So for you Dave,
all I have got to say is "Now **** off!"

Global warming has occurred and is continuing to increase. Therefore,
all weather that occurs now (severe and benign) is occurring in a
globally warmed environment. If the floods and landslides in some parts
of the British Isles this week are a direct result of global warming
then the largely fine weather in other parts (such as this part of
Buckinghamshire) must also be a direct result of global warming. The
reality must be very much more complicated than this simplistic
black/white scenario.

That is true. Only I would put it slightly differently. The floods and
landslides
are examples of the sort of weather we can expect to see more of as global
warming gets worse, just as the sunny weather in the south may increase too.

David Ball has a history of twisting my words, and demanding proof
whenever I suggest there may be a connection. As I pointed out to
him, if global warming causes all the forests in Canada to burn down,
when the last one goes he will still be screaming at me "Prove it
was caused by global warming!"

Being abusive to someone with an opinion different to yours does you no
credit, Alastair. Everyone is entitled to express their opinions. Those
who can back their opinions with good scientific evidence will have the
most credibility but abusiveness adds nothing to anyone's argument.

If David Ball ever expressed an opinion, then I would be willing to debate
with him. However, he only uses sneers and abuse. You have stumbled
into a flame war, which I had won until you reopened the issue :-(

Anyway, David Ball is not bothered by being told to **** off. I tell
him that all the time!

Cheers, Alastair.

August 20, 2004

Norman Lynagh wrote in message :

It has actually been a relatively quiet hurricane season so far this
year.

And you are actually full of ****. By the middle of August, we have
had two major Atlantic storms, one of them killing 20 people and
creating 10 billion dollars in damages, and there were two tropical
unnamed lows, one of them killing thousands in Haiti and the Dominican
Republic. All of this before the Cape Verde season has really even
started. That is not a 'relatively quiet' hurricane season by any
measure that I am familiar with. It's not even September yet.

Global warming has occurred and is continuing to increase. Therefore,
all weather that occurs now (severe and benign) is occurring in a
globally warmed environment. If the floods and landslides in some parts
of the British Isles this week are a direct result of global warming
then the largely fine weather in other parts (such as this part of
Buckinghamshire) must also be a direct result of global warming. The
reality must be very much more complicated than this simplistic
black/white scenario.

It's very simple, hydrocarbon combustion and human overpopulation are
destroying the world.

Being abusive to someone with an opinion different to yours does you no
credit, Alastair. Everyone is entitled to express their opinions. Those
who can back their opinions with good scientific evidence will have the
most credibility but abusiveness adds nothing to anyone's argument.

No, but it makes us feel better. How else can one respond to someone
who consistently demands 'absolute proof', and uses terms like 'direct
results', in scientific discussions?

Idjit.

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

(Thomas Lee Elifritz) wrote in message . com...

It's very simple, hydrocarbon combustion and human overpopulation are
destroying the world.

Thomas, Thomas, you ignorant slut.

There have always been hurricanes in the Caribbean/Gulf of Mexico.
It's the price you pay for living in sunshine and 70 degree
temperatures for 11 months out of the year.

The reasons these storms seem so much worse today a

1) People have always died. Now, however, we have CNN on the scene
almost from the minute trucks can enter the area. They show us live
and in color the damage that would have 20 years ago occupied 3 lines
on page 6 of the paper.

2) So many more people choose to live today in the potential path of
the storm. It's a risk you take - if you don't like filling sandbags,
don't live on the banks of the Mississippi. Chances are, global
warming or no, EVENTUALLY you're going to hit a year of heavy rain and
flood. It's just a matter of time.

3) Nature hates poor people. They build mobile homes out of twigs and
aluminum, and expect them to stand up when the Big Bad Wolf comes
a-calling. It's never the high-rise concrete $200 K a piece condos
that fall when a hurricane pounds through - it's always the mobile
home parks and wooden beach homes. Build like you mean it, or kick the
blocks out from under your home and move to Alabama.

On 20 Aug 2004 11:21:01 -0700, (Roy. Just
Roy.) wrote:

ignorant slut.

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:17:45 GMT, Psalm 110
wrote:

slut.

August 20, 2004

(Roy. Just Roy.) wrote in message :

(Thomas Lee Elifritz) wrote in message :

It's very simple, hydrocarbon combustion and human overpopulation are
destroying the world.

The reasons these storms seem so much worse today a

[nonsense snipped]

Total lack of reading comprehension noted.

http://hurricane.atmos.colostate.edu.../2004/aug2004/

http://www.ibiblio.org/lunarbin/worldpop

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm

Another idjit, broke, in debt.

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

"Thomas Lee Elifritz" wrote in message
om...
August 20, 2004

Norman Lynagh wrote in message :

It has actually been a relatively quiet hurricane season so far this
year.

And you are actually full of ****. By the middle of August, we have
had two major Atlantic storms, one of them killing 20 people and
creating 10 billion dollars in damages, and there were two tropical
unnamed lows, one of them killing thousands in Haiti and the Dominican
Republic. All of this before the Cape Verde season has really even
started. That is not a 'relatively quiet' hurricane season by any
measure that I am familiar with. It's not even September yet.


The damage caused is a function of where they happen to land 9( at random),
and the fact that there are "a **** load more" people living in Florida
than ever did before. You cannot measure weather effects by economic damage!
Jeez.

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com