Will the real John Christy please stand up??
---------------------------------------------------------------------

From the Himalayas to the South Pacific, 'Climate Witnesses' Testify About
Global Warming

The Associated Press

Dec. 10, 2004 - A Nepalese Sherpa fears his mountain valley will be flooded by
melting glacier runoff high in the Himalayas. A Fiji islander frets about
rising sea levels, while villagers cope with the destruction of mangrove swamps
in India.

As scientists debate whether global warming is affecting Earth, "climate
witnesses" told a U.N. environmental conference Friday they are already feeling
the heat of the changing weather patterns they say are drastically affecting
the way of life from the Himalayas to the South Pacific.


"In the past we just accepted it was the will of God," said Penina Moce, a
woman from Udu, a fishing village in Fiji. "But now we believe there could be
other reasons."

Moce spoke as delegates from nearly 200 countries sat down in Buenos Aires for
an annual gathering by government officials, scientists, and environmentalists
aimed at trying to reduce "greenhouse" emissions believed by many to be causing
a rise in Earth's temperatures.

The 44-year-year-old mother of five said many on her South Pacific island of
400 people are alarmed by recent signs of altering climate: shortened rainy
seasons, eroding coastlines and dwindling fish stocks. Water, already in short
supply, has become even harder to come by, she said.

"When it rains, everyone will leave whatever they're doing and rush outside to
try and save as much water as possible," she said. "We are lucky if it rains
for two days straight."

Environmentalists say her testimony exemplifies what is occurring in some areas
affected by global warming and climate change issues the world has tried to
address through the Kyoto Protocol, an agreement requiring initial cuts in
"greenhouse gas" emissions by 2012 that comes into force in February.

With only a few months remaining before Kyoto takes effect, the science over
global warming remains divided. The United States the largest industrialized
country not to join the treaty has cited scientific uncertainties as one of the
reasons.

Debate has dragged on for decades over the causes of climate change and whether
it is already being felt.

Many scientists believe carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases released by
factories, vehicles and coal-burning power plants seriously threaten life on
Earth by causing a gradual rise in the planet's temperature. Global warming has
been blamed for more violent storms, rising sea levels and shrinking animal
habitats.

Caspar Ammann, a scientist and climatologist with the National Center for
Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colo., said changes are apparent around the
world.

"You see the massive changes in the mountain ranges around the world. Where you
see the glaciers disappearing very rapidly, you see changes in vegetation and
changes in the whole seasonal cycles. The sea ice that is going back ... these
are indications."

A study by Tom Wigley and Sarah Raper of the Climatic Research Unit in Britain
found a 90 percent probability global temperatures will rise 3.1 to 8.9 degrees
between 1990 and 2100 as a result of human influences if greenhouse gas
emissions continue unchecked.

Other experts disagree, saying Earth's temperatures have varied greatly over
time, and little is known about how the atmosphere copes with temperature
change.

"If you look at the long-term records of temperatures, you will see periods
warmer than today and periods colder than today," said John Cristy, a
climatologist at the University of Alabama.

"We don't see the same warming in the deep atmosphere," he said. "If it were
man-made, that's where you would see the warming."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

But Anil Krishna Mistry, a 37-year-old rice farmer living in mangrove swamps
along India's border with Bangladesh, said he is worried by what he sees as
changing climate patterns.

He said the region is under constant threat of flooding from heavy rains and
that rising sea levels have washed away huge tracts of land and made others too
salty for rice growing.

"There were 64 types of mangrove plants in the region, but now half of those
species are dying out," said Krishna Mistry. "The mangrove stands act as a
barrier against high tides from the oceans," he said, but rising sea levels and
high tides are making the freshwater salty.

He said subsistence farmers are losing rice paddies and freshwater drinking
supplies to the rising sal****er tides and that many try to survive by poaching
and by overfishing in the 104 islands in the region.

"We are surrounded by water, but don't have a single drop to drink," Krishna
Mistry said. "The changes in monsoon patterns are leading to more unpredictable
weather. Many people are living on the edge, with no other place to go."

Norbu Sherpa, an expedition guide in the Himalayas, also warned of a changing
landscape in the Everest region.

"In the years that I have worked as a trekking expedition guide, I have seen
snow lines and glaciers go back higher and higher, he said. "Meanwhile, new
lakes are forming, others are growing larger and larger."

Copyright 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
--------------
Posted under the Fair Use Doctrine for research and information purposes only.
--
Eric Swanson --- E-mail address: e_swanson(at)skybest.com :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------

"If you look at the long-term records of temperatures, you will see
periods
warmer than today and periods colder than today," said John Cristy, a
climatologist at the University of Alabama.

"We don't see the same warming in the deep atmosphere," he said. "If it
were
man-made, that's where you would see the warming."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Why are you surprised, Eric? Christy has spoken at coal confabs
for years now. See Gelbspan's books. Of course Christy is not
going to testify that the vertical distribution problems were solved
this year by Fu, et al. That would displease the coal lobby.

"Eric Swanson" skrev i en meddelelse
...
Will the real John Christy please stand up??
---------------------------------------------------------------------

From the Himalayas to the South Pacific, 'Climate Witnesses' Testify About
Global Warming

The Associated Press

Dec. 10, 2004 - A Nepalese Sherpa fears his mountain valley will be
flooded by
melting glacier runoff high in the Himalayas. A Fiji islander frets about
rising sea levels, while villagers cope with the destruction of mangrove
swamps
in India.

As scientists debate whether global warming is affecting Earth, "climate
witnesses" told a U.N. environmental conference Friday they are already
feeling
the heat of the changing weather patterns they say are drastically
affecting
the way of life from the Himalayas to the South Pacific.


"In the past we just accepted it was the will of God," said Penina Moce, a
woman from Udu, a fishing village in Fiji. "But now we believe there could
be
other reasons."

Moce spoke as delegates from nearly 200 countries sat down in Buenos Aires
for
an annual gathering by government officials, scientists, and
environmentalists
aimed at trying to reduce "greenhouse" emissions believed by many to be
causing
a rise in Earth's temperatures.

The 44-year-year-old mother of five said many on her South Pacific island
of
400 people are alarmed by recent signs of altering climate: shortened
rainy
seasons, eroding coastlines and dwindling fish stocks. Water, already in
short
supply, has become even harder to come by, she said.

"When it rains, everyone will leave whatever they're doing and rush
outside to
try and save as much water as possible," she said. "We are lucky if it
rains
for two days straight."

Environmentalists say her testimony exemplifies what is occurring in some
areas
affected by global warming and climate change issues the world has tried
to
address through the Kyoto Protocol, an agreement requiring initial cuts in
"greenhouse gas" emissions by 2012 that comes into force in February.

With only a few months remaining before Kyoto takes effect, the science
over
global warming remains divided. The United States the largest
industrialized
country not to join the treaty has cited scientific uncertainties as one
of the
reasons.

Debate has dragged on for decades over the causes of climate change and
whether
it is already being felt.

Many scientists believe carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases released
by
factories, vehicles and coal-burning power plants seriously threaten life
on
Earth by causing a gradual rise in the planet's temperature. Global
warming has
been blamed for more violent storms, rising sea levels and shrinking
animal
habitats.

Caspar Ammann, a scientist and climatologist with the National Center for
Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colo., said changes are apparent around
the
world.

"You see the massive changes in the mountain ranges around the world.
Where you
see the glaciers disappearing very rapidly, you see changes in vegetation
and
changes in the whole seasonal cycles. The sea ice that is going back ...
these
are indications."

A study by Tom Wigley and Sarah Raper of the Climatic Research Unit in
Britain
found a 90 percent probability global temperatures will rise 3.1 to 8.9
degrees
between 1990 and 2100 as a result of human influences if greenhouse gas
emissions continue unchecked.

Other experts disagree, saying Earth's temperatures have varied greatly
over
time, and little is known about how the atmosphere copes with temperature
change.

"If you look at the long-term records of temperatures, you will see
periods
warmer than today and periods colder than today," said John Cristy, a
climatologist at the University of Alabama.

"We don't see the same warming in the deep atmosphere," he said. "If it
were
man-made, that's where you would see the warming."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

But Anil Krishna Mistry, a 37-year-old rice farmer living in mangrove
swamps
along India's border with Bangladesh, said he is worried by what he sees
as
changing climate patterns.

He said the region is under constant threat of flooding from heavy rains
and
that rising sea levels have washed away huge tracts of land and made
others too
salty for rice growing.

"There were 64 types of mangrove plants in the region, but now half of
those
species are dying out," said Krishna Mistry. "The mangrove stands act as a
barrier against high tides from the oceans," he said, but rising sea
levels and
high tides are making the freshwater salty.

He said subsistence farmers are losing rice paddies and freshwater
drinking
supplies to the rising sal****er tides and that many try to survive by
poaching
and by overfishing in the 104 islands in the region.

"We are surrounded by water, but don't have a single drop to drink,"
Krishna
Mistry said. "The changes in monsoon patterns are leading to more
unpredictable
weather. Many people are living on the edge, with no other place to go."

Norbu Sherpa, an expedition guide in the Himalayas, also warned of a
changing
landscape in the Everest region.

"In the years that I have worked as a trekking expedition guide, I have
seen
snow lines and glaciers go back higher and higher, he said. "Meanwhile,
new
lakes are forming, others are growing larger and larger."

Copyright 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
--------------
Posted under the Fair Use Doctrine for research and information purposes
only.
--
Eric Swanson --- E-mail address: e_swanson(at)skybest.com :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------


Can someone explain to me why "greenhouse gas" is not an artefact of
scientific intimidation: As far as I know, any gass in the atmosphere acts
as a "greenhouse gas" with it's particular range of low-wave frequencies
through which heat radiates off from the ground.
Given the amount of papers that has been made on climatology for the passed
10 years, I should know better and stay off the debate. But I'm a geologist
and cannot be surprised when changing temperatures are registrated.
I'm in no way trying to neglect the care that we should show our
environment, but I certainly would consider other options if I should
approach the problems of receding bio-diversity and lack of fresh water in
Bangaladesh, than looking at man-made temperature rise. A changing relative
sea-level is the geological rule, not the exception.
As for a growing size of a lake in Himalaya, a small tilt of this active
geological region is likely to have the impact that is seen. A rise of
lake-level would otherwise enhance the runoff if not the treshold is
changed.
As for the human habitats of oceanic reafs, general pollution that inhibits
their natural growth seems to me to be a problem with a possible higher
impact than subtle sealevel changes.
In all, registrating the subtle changes that is reported is fine, but next
to being somewhat dobious, man-made temperature changes has become a hat
that conviniently covers any odd event.


Carsten

"Carsten Troelsgaard" wrote in message
. ..

"Eric Swanson" skrev i en meddelelse
...
Will the real John Christy please stand up??
---------------------------------------------------------------------

From the Himalayas to the South Pacific, 'Climate Witnesses' Testify About
Global Warming

The Associated Press

Dec. 10, 2004 - A Nepalese Sherpa fears his mountain valley will be
flooded by
melting glacier runoff high in the Himalayas. A Fiji islander frets about
rising sea levels, while villagers cope with the destruction of mangrove
swamps in India.

As scientists debate whether global warming is affecting Earth, "climate
witnesses" told a U.N. environmental conference Friday they are
already feeling the heat of the changing weather patterns they say
are drastically affecting the way of life from the Himalayas to the .
South Pacific

"In the past we just accepted it was the will of God," said Penina Moce,


It is the will of God/Nature



"APPARENTLY with no surprise
To any happy flower,
The frost beheads it at its play
In accidental power.

The blond assassin passes on,
The sun proceeds unmoved
To measure off another day
For an approving God."



By E Dickinson



s







a
woman from Udu, a fishing village in Fiji. "But now we believe there could
be
other reasons."

Moce spoke as delegates from nearly 200 countries sat down in Buenos Aires
for
an annual gathering by government officials, scientists, and
environmentalists
aimed at trying to reduce "greenhouse" emissions believed by many to be
causing
a rise in Earth's temperatures.

The 44-year-year-old mother of five said many on her South Pacific island
of
400 people are alarmed by recent signs of altering climate: shortened
rainy
seasons, eroding coastlines and dwindling fish stocks. Water, already in
short
supply, has become even harder to come by, she said.

"When it rains, everyone will leave whatever they're doing and rush
outside to
try and save as much water as possible," she said. "We are lucky if it
rains
for two days straight."

Environmentalists say her testimony exemplifies what is occurring in some
areas
affected by global warming and climate change issues the world has tried
to
address through the Kyoto Protocol, an agreement requiring initial cuts in
"greenhouse gas" emissions by 2012 that comes into force in February.

With only a few months remaining before Kyoto takes effect, the science
over
global warming remains divided. The United States the largest
industrialized
country not to join the treaty has cited scientific uncertainties as one
of the
reasons.

Debate has dragged on for decades over the causes of climate change and
whether
it is already being felt.

Many scientists believe carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases released
by
factories, vehicles and coal-burning power plants seriously threaten life
on
Earth by causing a gradual rise in the planet's temperature. Global
warming has
been blamed for more violent storms, rising sea levels and shrinking
animal
habitats.

Caspar Ammann, a scientist and climatologist with the National Center for
Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colo., said changes are apparent around
the
world.

"You see the massive changes in the mountain ranges around the world.
Where you
see the glaciers disappearing very rapidly, you see changes in vegetation
and
changes in the whole seasonal cycles. The sea ice that is going back ...
these
are indications."

A study by Tom Wigley and Sarah Raper of the Climatic Research Unit in
Britain
found a 90 percent probability global temperatures will rise 3.1 to 8.9
degrees
between 1990 and 2100 as a result of human influences if greenhouse gas
emissions continue unchecked.

Other experts disagree, saying Earth's temperatures have varied greatly
over
time, and little is known about how the atmosphere copes with temperature
change.

"If you look at the long-term records of temperatures, you will see
periods
warmer than today and periods colder than today," said John Cristy, a
climatologist at the University of Alabama.

"We don't see the same warming in the deep atmosphere," he said. "If it
were
man-made, that's where you would see the warming."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

But Anil Krishna Mistry, a 37-year-old rice farmer living in mangrove
swamps
along India's border with Bangladesh, said he is worried by what he sees
as
changing climate patterns.

He said the region is under constant threat of flooding from heavy rains
and
that rising sea levels have washed away huge tracts of land and made
others too
salty for rice growing.

"There were 64 types of mangrove plants in the region, but now half of
those
species are dying out," said Krishna Mistry. "The mangrove stands act as a
barrier against high tides from the oceans," he said, but rising sea
levels and
high tides are making the freshwater salty.

He said subsistence farmers are losing rice paddies and freshwater
drinking
supplies to the rising sal****er tides and that many try to survive by
poaching
and by overfishing in the 104 islands in the region.

"We are surrounded by water, but don't have a single drop to drink,"
Krishna
Mistry said. "The changes in monsoon patterns are leading to more
unpredictable
weather. Many people are living on the edge, with no other place to go."

Norbu Sherpa, an expedition guide in the Himalayas, also warned of a
changing
landscape in the Everest region.

"In the years that I have worked as a trekking expedition guide, I have
seen
snow lines and glaciers go back higher and higher, he said. "Meanwhile,
new
lakes are forming, others are growing larger and larger."

Copyright 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
--------------
Posted under the Fair Use Doctrine for research and information purposes
only.
--
Eric Swanson --- E-mail address: e_swanson(at)skybest.com :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------


Can someone explain to me why "greenhouse gas" is not an artefact of
scientific intimidation: As far as I know, any gass in the atmosphere acts
as a "greenhouse gas" with it's particular range of low-wave frequencies
through which heat radiates off from the ground.
Given the amount of papers that has been made on climatology for the passed
10 years, I should know better and stay off the debate. But I'm a geologist
and cannot be surprised when changing temperatures are registrated.
I'm in no way trying to neglect the care that we should show our
environment, but I certainly would consider other options if I should
approach the problems of receding bio-diversity and lack of fresh water in
Bangaladesh, than looking at man-made temperature rise. A changing relative
sea-level is the geological rule, not the exception.
As for a growing size of a lake in Himalaya, a small tilt of this active
geological region is likely to have the impact that is seen. A rise of
lake-level would otherwise enhance the runoff if not the treshold is
changed.
As for the human habitats of oceanic reafs, general pollution that inhibits
their natural growth seems to me to be a problem with a possible higher
impact than subtle sealevel changes.
In all, registrating the subtle changes that is reported is fine, but next
to being somewhat dobious, man-made temperature changes has become a hat
that conviniently covers any odd event.


Carsten

In article ,
"Carsten Troelsgaard" wrote:

Can someone explain to me why "greenhouse gas" is not an artefact of
scientific intimidation: As far as I know, any gass in the atmosphere acts
as a "greenhouse gas" with it's particular range of low-wave frequencies
through which heat radiates off from the ground.

Only those gases that absorb IR radiation from the earth (which would
otherwise escape to space) and re-radiate it in all directions (thus
warming the earth) are greenhouse gases. N2, for example, is transparent
to IR radiation.

Given the amount of papers that has been made on climatology for the
passed
10 years, I should know better and stay off the debate. But I'm a
geologist
and cannot be surprised when changing temperatures are registrated.
I'm in no way trying to neglect the care that we should show our
environment, but I certainly would consider other options if I should
approach the problems of receding bio-diversity and lack of fresh water in
Bangaladesh, than looking at man-made temperature rise. A changing
relative
sea-level is the geological rule, not the exception.

But consider the rate at which it will change.

As for a growing size of a lake in Himalaya, a small tilt of this active
geological region is likely to have the impact that is seen. A rise of
lake-level would otherwise enhance the runoff if not the treshold is
changed.
As for the human habitats of oceanic reafs, general pollution that
inhibits
their natural growth seems to me to be a problem with a possible higher
impact than subtle sealevel changes.
In all, registrating the subtle changes that is reported is fine, but next
to being somewhat dobious, man-made temperature changes has become a hat
that conviniently covers any odd event.


Carsten

"Carsten Troelsgaard" wrote in message
. ..

"Eric Swanson" skrev i en meddelelse
...
Will the real John Christy please stand up??
---------------------------------------------------------------------

From the Himalayas to the South Pacific, 'Climate Witnesses' Testify About
Global Warming

The Associated Press

Dec. 10, 2004 - A Nepalese Sherpa fears his mountain valley will be
flooded by
melting glacier runoff high in the Himalayas. A Fiji islander frets about
rising sea levels, while villagers cope with the destruction of mangrove
swamps
in India.

As scientists debate whether global warming is affecting Earth, "climate
witnesses" told a U.N. environmental conference Friday they are already
feeling
the heat of the changing weather patterns they say are drastically
affecting
the way of life from the Himalayas to the South Pacific.


"In the past we just accepted it was the will of God," said Penina Moce, a
woman from Udu, a fishing village in Fiji. "But now we believe there could
be
other reasons."

Moce spoke as delegates from nearly 200 countries sat down in Buenos Aires
for
an annual gathering by government officials, scientists, and
environmentalists
aimed at trying to reduce "greenhouse" emissions believed by many to be
causing
a rise in Earth's temperatures.

The 44-year-year-old mother of five said many on her South Pacific island
of
400 people are alarmed by recent signs of altering climate: shortened
rainy
seasons, eroding coastlines and dwindling fish stocks. Water, already in
short
supply, has become even harder to come by, she said.

"When it rains, everyone will leave whatever they're doing and rush
outside to
try and save as much water as possible," she said. "We are lucky if it
rains
for two days straight."

Environmentalists say her testimony exemplifies what is occurring in some
areas
affected by global warming and climate change issues the world has tried
to
address through the Kyoto Protocol, an agreement requiring initial cuts in
"greenhouse gas" emissions by 2012 that comes into force in February.

With only a few months remaining before Kyoto takes effect, the science
over
global warming remains divided. The United States the largest
industrialized
country not to join the treaty has cited scientific uncertainties as one
of the
reasons.

Debate has dragged on for decades over the causes of climate change and
whether
it is already being felt.

Many scientists believe carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases released
by
factories, vehicles and coal-burning power plants seriously threaten life
on
Earth by causing a gradual rise in the planet's temperature. Global
warming has
been blamed for more violent storms, rising sea levels and shrinking
animal
habitats.

Caspar Ammann, a scientist and climatologist with the National Center for
Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colo., said changes are apparent around
the
world.

"You see the massive changes in the mountain ranges around the world.
Where you
see the glaciers disappearing very rapidly, you see changes in vegetation
and
changes in the whole seasonal cycles. The sea ice that is going back ...
these
are indications."

A study by Tom Wigley and Sarah Raper of the Climatic Research Unit in
Britain
found a 90 percent probability global temperatures will rise 3.1 to 8.9
degrees
between 1990 and 2100 as a result of human influences if greenhouse gas
emissions continue unchecked.

Other experts disagree, saying Earth's temperatures have varied greatly
over
time, and little is known about how the atmosphere copes with temperature
change.

"If you look at the long-term records of temperatures, you will see
periods
warmer than today and periods colder than today," said John Cristy, a
climatologist at the University of Alabama.

"We don't see the same warming in the deep atmosphere," he said. "If it
were
man-made, that's where you would see the warming."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

But Anil Krishna Mistry, a 37-year-old rice farmer living in mangrove
swamps
along India's border with Bangladesh, said he is worried by what he sees
as
changing climate patterns.

He said the region is under constant threat of flooding from heavy rains
and
that rising sea levels have washed away huge tracts of land and made
others too
salty for rice growing.

"There were 64 types of mangrove plants in the region, but now half of
those
species are dying out," said Krishna Mistry. "The mangrove stands act as a
barrier against high tides from the oceans," he said, but rising sea
levels and
high tides are making the freshwater salty.

He said subsistence farmers are losing rice paddies and freshwater
drinking
supplies to the rising sal****er tides and that many try to survive by
poaching
and by overfishing in the 104 islands in the region.

"We are surrounded by water, but don't have a single drop to drink,"
Krishna
Mistry said. "The changes in monsoon patterns are leading to more
unpredictable
weather. Many people are living on the edge, with no other place to go."

Norbu Sherpa, an expedition guide in the Himalayas, also warned of a
changing
landscape in the Everest region.

"In the years that I have worked as a trekking expedition guide, I have
seen
snow lines and glaciers go back higher and higher, he said. "Meanwhile,
new
lakes are forming, others are growing larger and larger."

Copyright 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
--------------
Posted under the Fair Use Doctrine for research and information purposes
only.
--
Eric Swanson --- E-mail address: e_swanson(at)skybest.com :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------


Can someone explain to me why "greenhouse gas" is not an artefact of
scientific intimidation: As far as I know, any gass in the atmosphere acts
as a "greenhouse gas" with it's particular range of low-wave frequencies
through which heat radiates off from the ground.

No! Nitrogen and Oxygen do not act as greenhouse gases. Only t
riatomic and greater gases oscillate at the appropriate frequencies to
trap the out going infrared radiation. None of the atmospheric gases
trap the incoming solar radiation to any extent, and it is this
unidirectional trapping which is the problem. It is the basis of the
rather unappropriate name for the effect.

Increasing greenhouse gases will not cause the world to come to an
end in geological terms, but it could make the world far less habitable
for 6,000,000,000 on the planet today. The world survived the last
ice age, but if it recurred do you really think that the financial
penalties imposed by Kyoto would not have seemed small beer to
have prevented it? Alternatively, the climate could return to the hothouse
world of the Cretaceous with lush jungles in Alaska and New Zealand.
But this would come with a rise of sea level of at least 80m (250 feet).
That means much agricultural land would be lost, along with most
property in ports throught the world. These includes many of the largest
cities such as Melbourne, Sydney, New York, Boston, Seatle. Los Angeles,
Miami, St Louis, Amsterdam, London, Rome, Athens, Calcutta, Shanghai,
Hong Kong, Bankok, ...

Cheers, Alastair.

Carsten Troelsgaard wrote:

snip

Can someone explain to me why "greenhouse gas" is not an artefact of
scientific intimidation: As far as I know, any gass in the atmosphere acts
as a "greenhouse gas" with it's particular range of low-wave frequencies
through which heat radiates off from the ground.
Given the amount of papers that has been made on climatology for the
passed 10 years, I should know better and stay off the debate. But I'm a
geologist and cannot be surprised when changing temperatures are
registrated. I'm in no way trying to neglect the care that we should show
our environment, but I certainly would consider other options if I should
approach the problems of receding bio-diversity and lack of fresh water in
Bangaladesh, than looking at man-made temperature rise. A changing
relative sea-level is the geological rule, not the exception.
As for a growing size of a lake in Himalaya, a small tilt of this active
geological region is likely to have the impact that is seen. A rise of
lake-level would otherwise enhance the runoff if not the treshold is
changed.
As for the human habitats of oceanic reafs, general pollution that
inhibits their natural growth seems to me to be a problem with a possible
higher impact than subtle sealevel changes.
In all, registrating the subtle changes that is reported is fine, but next
to being somewhat dobious, man-made temperature changes has become a hat
that conviniently covers any odd event.



If you wish to read more about the science behind Global warming you may
find the following of some use.
http://www.ace.mmu.ac.uk/Resources/gcc/
http://www.euronet.nl/users/e_wesker/climate.html
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/index.htm
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/
http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwa...ent/index.html
http://gcmd.nasa.gov/

Graham

"Alastair McDonald" k wrote in
message ...

"Carsten Troelsgaard" wrote in message
. ..

"Eric Swanson" skrev i en meddelelse
...
Will the real John Christy please stand up??




Can someone explain to me why "greenhouse gas" is not an artefact of
scientific intimidation: As far as I know, any gass in the atmosphere acts
as a "greenhouse gas" with it's particular range of low-wave frequencies
through which heat radiates off from the ground.

No! Nitrogen and Oxygen do not act as greenhouse gases. Only t
riatomic and greater gases oscillate at the appropriate frequencies to
trap the out going infrared radiation. None of the atmospheric gases
trap the incoming solar radiation to any extent, and it is this
unidirectional trapping which is the problem. It is the basis of the
rather unappropriate name for the effect.



Increasing greenhouse gases will not cause the world to come to an
end in geological terms, but it could make the world far less habitable
for 6,000,000,000 on the planet today. The world survived the last
ice age, but if it recurred do you really think that the financial
penalties imposed by Kyoto would not have seemed small beer to
have prevented it? Alternatively, the climate could return to the hothouse
world of the Cretaceous with lush jungles in Alaska and New Zealand.
But this would come with a rise of sea level of at least 80m (250 feet).
That means much agricultural land would be lost, along with most
property in ports throught the world. These includes many of the largest
cities such as Melbourne, Sydney, New York, Boston, Seatle. Los Angeles,
Miami, St Louis, Amsterdam, London, Rome, Athens, Calcutta, Shanghai,
Hong Kong, Bankok, ...


Your view implies that as life on earth increases its activity, it's
more likely to cause the climate changes to occur faster and to one or
the other extreme. I don't see it that way, climate changes will occur
faster, but to oscillate around the middle not to an extreme.

Life and our climate coevolve, and as life grows more pervasive
the system will become more adaptive and resilient since that
is a universal characteristic of systems driven far from
equilibrium. As they approach the edge, systems spontaneously
organize and tend to enter a self sustaining cycle. So it
would find the optimum faster and stay near it.

This would require that life on earth operate within principles
that mimic natural ones, being adaptive, open and
civilized. Which means spreading free democracies and
markets that have all those mysterious and unique
properties of life.

They find the best solutions all by themselves.


The Great Mistake of the last century is to think
humans can micromanage or out-design nature.
Socialism, dictatorships, oligarchies and all kinds
of rigid structures imposed upon the many, by
the few, gave us most if not all of our horrors.

To restore nature into the affairs of humanity the power
structure must be reversed. Greater connectivity
among people, so that the many control the few, is
the path. Just such a scenario is unfolding before
our eyes...internet...new democracies and
technologies.

As turning points go, we live in the middle of the
Big One!


Jonathan

s



s





Cheers, Alastair.

December 11, 2004

Graham P Davis wrote:

If you wish to read more about the science behind Global warming you may
find the following of some use.
http://www.ace.mmu.ac.uk/Resources/gcc/
http://www.euronet.nl/users/e_wesker/climate.html
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/index.htm
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/
http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwa...ent/index.html
http://gcmd.nasa.gov/

Carsten is incompetent, I don't think he'll take the time.

Thanks for trying though.

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

"jonathan" wrote in message ...



Your view implies that as life on earth increases its activity, it's
more likely to cause the climate changes to occur faster and to one or
the other extreme. I don't see it that way, climate changes will occur
faster, but to oscillate around the middle not to an extreme.

That was not what I intended. I was only illustrating examples of
states of the planet where life went on, but mankind would find it
impossible with populations levels as they are at present. Moreover
we cannot expect to have time to adjust. Geology shows us that
the climate changes abruptly. There are very few beds of rocks
which show a slow transition from one regime to another. Almost
by definition bed changes are abrupt.

Life and our climate coevolve, and as life grows more pervasive
the system will become more adaptive and resilient since that
is a universal characteristic of systems driven far from
equilibrium. As they approach the edge, systems spontaneously
organize and tend to enter a self sustaining cycle. So it
would find the optimum faster and stay near it.

I do not agree that they coevolve. That is the Gaia Theory as yet
unproven. As I see it the climate is driven by physical processes
such as changes in greenhouse gas concentration i.e. the PETM.
Life adjust to the climate, but that can take geological time rather
than that of the human time span.

This would require that life on earth operate within principles
that mimic natural ones, being adaptive, open and
civilized. Which means spreading free democracies and
markets that have all those mysterious and unique
properties of life.

They find the best solutions all by themselves.

You seem to be arguing for laissez faire economics which
brought us the General Slump, and the fishing out of the Grand
Banks. There is no guarantee that systems will evolve to
maximise utility.

The Great Mistake of the last century is to think
humans can micromanage or out-design nature.
Socialism, dictatorships, oligarchies and all kinds
of rigid structures imposed upon the many, by
the few, gave us most if not all of our horrors.

Socialism gave us the polluted Lake Baikal and a dried
up Aral Sea. Capitalism led to the polluted Great Lakes,
and a wasteland in the Florida Everglades.

To restore nature into the affairs of humanity the power
structure must be reversed. Greater connectivity
among people, so that the many control the few, is
the path. Just such a scenario is unfolding before
our eyes...internet...new democracies and
technologies.

As turning points go, we live in the middle of the Big One!

If we do not do something about climate change, what you
say will prove only too true. It is the USA not Russia which is
opposing any action. Victory in the cold war for the US does
mean it can stay neutral in the hot war against global warming.

Cheers, Alastair.