"Eric Swanson" wrote in message
...
In article ,
lid says...

hi everyone,just thought I'd make a topic on the weather and also the
many different factors and how everything forms(this will be a very
long post but hopefully very informative..so firstly we should start
off wih some basics.

For those who don't know what those "Highs" and "Lows" stand for on
the charts here is a brief description of them,which you will
hopefully understand,Air pressure is a measure of how much air is
pushing down on the surface of the Earth at a given point. Generally,
high- and low-pressure systems form when air mass and temperature
differences between the surface of the Earth and the upper atmosphere
create vertical currents. In a low-pressure system, these vertical
winds travel upwards and suck air away from the surface of the Earth
like a giant vacuum cleaner, decreasing the air pressure above the
ground or sea. This decrease in surface air pressure in turn causes
atmospheric currents moving parallel to the surface of the Earth near
the base of the low to spin counter clockwise (clockwise in the
Southern Hemisphere). Conversely, in a high-pressure system, air is
being pushed down on the ground like a vacuum put in reverse. The
downward vertical winds cause an increase in air pressure on the
ground and force atmospheric currents to spin clockwise (counter
clockwise in the Southern Hemisphere). Both lows and highs function
like giant slow-moving hurricanes and anti-cyclones, respectively.
The higher in pressure a high-pressure system gets or the lower in
pressure a low-pressure system gets, the more robust and larger this
spinning circulation pattern becomes.


Well, that is a nice friendly remark!

First off, vacuums can't "suck" a fluid.

He said vacuum cleaners, not vacuum, which do in fact suck!

Sorry to bust your bubble, but your beginning (and likely/////// everything
else) is very wrong.


The force of gravity doesn't
push the air towards the earth, it pulls it.

The weight of the air above a point pushes the air beneath it and that is
what we measure when we measure air pressure - a push from the air
above, not the gravitational force on the surrounfing air molecules!

The rotation of an airmass
is due to the Coriolis Effect, as air moves from one latitude to another.
In the NH, the highs rotate in a clockwise direction, while in the SH,
they rotate the other way. The low pressure areas are the result of
horizontal horizontal motions in the atmosphere and vorticity, that
is, the tendency for a fluid to maintain its rotation.

http://www.answers.com/coriolis+effect&r=67

If the Coriolis effect is due to the rotation of the Earth affecting the
flow of air from one latitude to another, why do anti-cyclones rotate
in one direction and depressions in another? (BTW. That was a
rhetorical question requiring no answer. There are plenty of specious
arguments used to justify the misuse of the Coriolis effect.)

Might I suggest that you would benefit by reading an introductory college
level text on meteorology?

Might I suggest that you would benefit by ceasing to read introductory college
level texts on meteorology, and start thinking about some of these problems
for yourself, much as it appears climateshift has done!

Cheers, Alastair.

In article , says...


"Eric Swanson" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

hi everyone,just thought I'd make a topic on the weather and also the
many different factors and how everything forms(this will be a very
long post but hopefully very informative..so firstly we should start
off wih some basics.

For those who don't know what those "Highs" and "Lows" stand for on
the charts here is a brief description of them,which you will
hopefully understand,Air pressure is a measure of how much air is
pushing down on the surface of the Earth at a given point. Generally,
high- and low-pressure systems form when air mass and temperature
differences between the surface of the Earth and the upper atmosphere
create vertical currents. In a low-pressure system, these vertical
winds travel upwards and suck air away from the surface of the Earth
like a giant vacuum cleaner, decreasing the air pressure above the
ground or sea. This decrease in surface air pressure in turn causes
atmospheric currents moving parallel to the surface of the Earth near
the base of the low to spin counter clockwise (clockwise in the
Southern Hemisphere). Conversely, in a high-pressure system, air is
being pushed down on the ground like a vacuum put in reverse. The
downward vertical winds cause an increase in air pressure on the
ground and force atmospheric currents to spin clockwise (counter
clockwise in the Southern Hemisphere). Both lows and highs function
like giant slow-moving hurricanes and anti-cyclones, respectively.
The higher in pressure a high-pressure system gets or the lower in
pressure a low-pressure system gets, the more robust and larger this
spinning circulation pattern becomes.


Well, that is a nice friendly remark!

First off, vacuums can't "suck" a fluid.

He said vacuum cleaners, not vacuum, which do in fact suck!

Vacuum cleaners push the air out of an enclosed space. The resulting
low pressure allows the air from outside to push into that space. "Sucking"
is the result of pushing the air out, not pulling the air into the space.
A fluid can not produce a static tension force, only a pressure force.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but your beginning (and likely/////// everything
else) is very wrong.


The force of gravity doesn't
push the air towards the earth, it pulls it.

The weight of the air above a point pushes the air beneath it and that is
what we measure when we measure air pressure - a push from the air
above, not the gravitational force on the surrounfing air molecules!

Learn some physics. The "weight" of the air is due to the gravitational
pull on the mass of air above. The "weight" of the same column of air
would be less on Mars and greater on Jupiter.

The rotation of an airmass
is due to the Coriolis Effect, as air moves from one latitude to another.
In the NH, the highs rotate in a clockwise direction, while in the SH,
they rotate the other way. The low pressure areas are the result of
horizontal horizontal motions in the atmosphere and vorticity, that
is, the tendency for a fluid to maintain its rotation.

http://www.answers.com/coriolis+effect&r=67

If the Coriolis effect is due to the rotation of the Earth affecting the
flow of air from one latitude to another, why do anti-cyclones rotate
in one direction and depressions in another? (BTW. That was a
rhetorical question requiring no answer. There are plenty of specious
arguments used to justify the misuse of the Coriolis effect.)

Lets consider the situation in the NH. Warm air masses moving toward the pole
tend to rotate clockwise, due to the conservation of momentum. That is, the
air has an eastward velocity close to that of the ground below it, but, as
the air mass moves to a higher latitude, the rotational radius of the ground
below is reduced, thus the eastward velocity of the ground is less. As a
result, the air mass appears to have an ever increasing eastward velocity
when viewed from the surface. The same effect happens in reverse as (usually)
cold air masses flow back from the pole toward the tropics, except that the
ground has a greater velocity to the East than the air mass as the latitude
is decreased. Thus, the flows look as if they rotate. Along the boundaries
of the air masses, the velocities of the air move in opposite directions, thus
low pressure storms form with counter clockwise rotation. Once the rotation
of a storm begins, vorticity (again, conservation of momentum) keeps the
rotation going until it is damped out by drag. Hurricanes are a bit different,
developing from warm air which rises above a warm ocean surface.

Might I suggest that you would benefit by reading an introductory college
level text on meteorology?

Might I suggest that you would benefit by ceasing to read introductory college
level texts on meteorology, and start thinking about some of these problems
for yourself, much as it appears climateshift has done!

If one doesn't know the basics, then one is likely to misunderstand what one
percieves to be happening to climate.

--
Eric Swanson --- E-mail address: e_swanson(at)skybest.com :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------

"Eric Swanson" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

If the Coriolis effect is due to the rotation of the Earth affecting the
flow of air from one latitude to another, why do anti-cyclones rotate
in one direction and depressions in another? (BTW. That was a
rhetorical question requiring no answer. There are plenty of specious
arguments used to justify the misuse of the Coriolis effect.)

Lets consider the situation in the NH. Warm air masses moving toward the
pole
tend to rotate clockwise, due to the conservation of momentum. That is, the
air has an eastward velocity close to that of the ground below it, but, as
the air mass moves to a higher latitude, the rotational radius of the ground
below is reduced, thus the eastward velocity of the ground is less. As a
result, the air mass appears to have an ever increasing eastward velocity
when viewed from the surface. The same effect happens in reverse as
(usually)
cold air masses flow back from the pole toward the tropics, except that the
ground has a greater velocity to the East than the air mass as the latitude
is decreased. Thus, the flows look as if they rotate.

A good description of how the Coriolis effect works.

Along the boundaries
of the air masses, the velocities of the air move in opposite directions,

Why? The Coriolis effect still works in the same manner even if the air
moves in the opposite direction. You are talking rubbish. Admit it!

thus
low pressure storms form with counter clockwise rotation. Once the rotation
of a storm begins, vorticity (again, conservation of momentum)

Correct. It is the change in vorticity as the air rises or falls which causes
the rotation in the appropriate direction. The Coriolis effect is just
something
for school books.

keeps the
rotation going until it is damped out by drag. Hurricanes are a bit
different, developing from warm air which rises above a warm ocean
surface.


Might I suggest that you would benefit by ceasing to read introductory
college level texts on meteorology, and start thinking about some of these
problems for yourself, much as it appears climateshift has done!

If one doesn't know the basics, then one is likely to misunderstand what one
perceives to be happening to climate.

True!

Cheers, Alastair.
-----------------------------------------------------

In article , says...

"Eric Swanson" wrote...
says...

If the Coriolis effect is due to the rotation of the Earth affecting the
flow of air from one latitude to another, why do anti-cyclones rotate
in one direction and depressions in another? (BTW. That was a
rhetorical question requiring no answer. There are plenty of specious
arguments used to justify the misuse of the Coriolis effect.)

Lets consider the situation in the NH. Warm air masses moving toward the pole
tend to rotate clockwise, due to the conservation of momentum. That is, the
air has an eastward velocity close to that of the ground below it, but, as
the air mass moves to a higher latitude, the rotational radius of the ground
below is reduced, thus the eastward velocity of the ground is less. As a
result, the air mass appears to have an ever increasing eastward velocity
when viewed from the surface. The same effect happens in reverse as
(usually)
cold air masses flow back from the pole toward the tropics, except that the
ground has a greater velocity to the East than the air mass as the latitude
is decreased. Thus, the flows look as if they rotate.

A good description of how the Coriolis effect works.

Thanks.

Along the boundaries
of the air masses, the velocities of the air move in opposite directions,

Why? The Coriolis effect still works in the same manner even if the air
moves in the opposite direction. You are talking rubbish. Admit it!

And what do you suggest happens between two air masses moving in opposite
directons between lower and higher latitudes? It's called a frontal boundary.
Don't you have those over Britain? I'm thinking of the type of storms that
form at the boundary, the result of the shift in wind direction as the front
passes over some location on the surface.

thus
low pressure storms form with counter clockwise rotation. Once the rotation
of a storm begins, vorticity (again, conservation of momentum)

Correct. It is the change in vorticity as the air rises or falls which causes
the rotation in the appropriate direction. The Coriolis effect is just
something for school books.

The vorticity IS the rotation, in simple terms. What causes a vortex to form
on the wingtip of an aircraft?

keeps the
rotation going until it is damped out by drag. Hurricanes are a bit
different, developing from warm air which rises above a warm ocean
surface.


Might I suggest that you would benefit by ceasing to read introductory
college level texts on meteorology, and start thinking about some of these
problems for yourself, much as it appears climateshift has done!

If one doesn't know the basics, then one is likely to misunderstand what one
perceives to be happening to climate.

True!

Well, I try to get things right.

--
Eric Swanson --- E-mail address: e_swanson(at)skybest.com :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------

"Alastair McDonald" k wrote
in message ...
Correct. It is the change in vorticity as the air rises or falls which
causes
the rotation in the appropriate direction. The Coriolis effect is just
something
for school books.

In the northern hemisphere the rotation of the earth causes moving air to be
deflected to the right. The direction of the "spin" is merely an artifact
of whether the air is flowing to (a low) or away (a high) from an area.
Try R E A D I N G a textbook and you'd know this elementary ****.

"Tim K." wrote in message
...

"Alastair McDonald" k wrote
in message ...
Correct. It is the change in vorticity as the air rises or falls which
causes
the rotation in the appropriate direction. The Coriolis effect is just
something
for school books.

In the northern hemisphere the rotation of the earth causes moving air to be
deflected to the right. The direction of the "spin" is merely an artifact
of whether the air is flowing to (a low) or away (a high) from an area.
Try R E A D I N G a textbook and you'd know this elementary ****.

If you want to believe that the Coriolis effect does not depend on the
latitudinal flow rate, but rather whether the air is flowing into a low
or out of a high, go ahead. But note that with both highs and lows
the meridonal flow is diverted. How do you explain that using the
Coriolis effect?

You shouldn't bekieve everything that you read in books, especially
elementary ones!

HTH,

Cheers, Alastair.

"Alastair McDonald" k wrote
in message ...

"Tim K." wrote in message
...

"Alastair McDonald" k
wrote
in message ...
Correct. It is the change in vorticity as the air rises or falls which
causes
the rotation in the appropriate direction. The Coriolis effect is
just
something
for school books.

In the northern hemisphere the rotation of the earth causes moving air
to be
deflected to the right. The direction of the "spin" is merely an
artifact
of whether the air is flowing to (a low) or away (a high) from an area.
Try R E A D I N G a textbook and you'd know this elementary ****.

If you want to believe that the Coriolis effect does not depend on the
latitudinal flow rate,

To what degree mister expert?

"Tim K." wrote in message
m...

"Alastair McDonald" k wrote
in message ...

"Tim K." wrote in message
...

"Alastair McDonald" k
wrote
in message ...
Correct. It is the change in vorticity as the air rises or falls which
causes
the rotation in the appropriate direction. The Coriolis effect is
just
something
for school books.

In the northern hemisphere the rotation of the earth causes moving air
to be
deflected to the right. The direction of the "spin" is merely an
artifact
of whether the air is flowing to (a low) or away (a high) from an area.
Try R E A D I N G a textbook and you'd know this elementary ****.

If you want to believe that the Coriolis effect does not depend on the
latitudinal flow rate,

To what degree mister expert?

You haven't got a clue have you? How do you think the Coriolis effect
works? Perhaps you should try reading some elementary books, or even
web pages.

Bye ,

Cheers, Alastair.

I'll just forget everything in all the physical science texts and
meteorology texts about conservation of angular momentum and believe you
instead.

"Tim K." wrote in message news:
I'll just forget everything in all the physical science texts and
meteorology texts about conservation of angular momentum and believe you
instead.

You should.