Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:58:08 -0800 (PST), David
wrote:

Accuweather
http://global-warming.accuweather.co...an_empire.html


Here is the main text of the article.:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A new technique in determining ancient rainfall appears to support
some historians views that the fall of the Roman and Byzantine
Empires was partly caused by climate change, and more specifically
drought, according to the ABC News article.

John Valley of the University of Wisconsin-Madison and collegues
studied stalactites from a cave near Jerusalem.

Using a new instrument called an ion microprobe, Valley and his
team were able to see much more finer detail within the "rings" of
the stalactites, which basically contain a historical record of
rainfall climate in the region from 200 B.C to 1100 A.D.

The ion microprobe allows the team to break down the stalactite
data by a single year, or even separate seasons, as opposed to
centuries.

"The advantage of the ion microprobe is it allows us to analyze
samples that are a million to a billion times smaller than we
could in the past," said Valley.

The new tool allowed the team to construct the climate record year
by year during the time the Roman and Byzantine empires were
struggling to survive.

Findings

The team determined that there was a gradual reduction in rainfall
during the period all the way back to 200 BC, which supports, but
does not yet prove that drought from climate change was partially
responsible for the fall of these empires, as some historians have
said. "
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Acording to Mike Baillie the following is reported from various
sources (all dates are AD):

535, 536 and 541 Scuderi's very cold years in Sierra Nevada
536-537 Vulcanologists note severe European dry fog
536 Extreme cold summer in Fennoscandia
536 Irish Annals refer to 'failure of bread'
536-538 Chinese famines
536 Chinese note star Canopus not seen
537 Mortality in Ireland and Britain
538 Anomalous Anglo-Saxon eclipse record
539 Irish Annals refer to 'failure of bread'
540 Anomalous Anglo-Saxon eclipse record
540 +/- 10 Dye 3 ice core acidity peak (later moved)
540-542 Irish oaks show notable reduced growth
542 Justinian plague appears out of Egypt

A long period of drought might have made things difficult but a sudden
(as these things go) climate down turn c 542 appears to have
administered the coup de gras.

It was either a volcanic eruption or an asteroid impact/fireball.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_changes_of_535-536

On Dec 12, 1:52*pm, kT wrote:

It was either a volcanic eruption or an asteroid impact/fireball.

Nope
Lead from their water reticulation system did 'em in

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:47:30 -0800 (PST), George
wrote:

On Dec 12, 1:52*pm, kT wrote:

It was either a volcanic eruption or an asteroid impact/fireball.

Nope
Lead from their water reticulation system did 'em in

And the world-wide incidence of several years cold weather had nothing
to do with it?

I don't think the plague was a consequence of lead in the Roman water
systems.

Then there is:

http://www.waterhistory.org/histories/rome/

"It has been hypothesized that Rome's dependence on lead water
pipes lead to its decline. It has been suggested that the
aristocracy died off from nothing more complicated than simple lead
poisoning.

Since almost all of the lead absorbed by the human body is
deposited in bones, investigators have studied the bones of ancient
Romans. While some studies did indicate above normal concentrations
of lead, it seems unlikely that water pipes were a contributing
factor. Hodge (1981) has correctly pointed out that lead pipes
would not have caused contamination for two reasons: (1) because
the Roman water contained high concentrations of calcium which
formed deposits inside the pipes, insulating the lead and (2)
because lead will never greatly affect running water. "




Eric Stevens

Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:47:30 -0800 (PST), George
wrote:

On Dec 12, 1:52 pm, kT wrote:

It was either a volcanic eruption or an asteroid impact/fireball.

Nope
Lead from their water reticulation system did 'em in

And the world-wide incidence of several years cold weather had nothing
to do with it?

I don't think the plague was a consequence of lead in the Roman water
systems.

Then there is:

http://www.waterhistory.org/histories/rome/

"It has been hypothesized that Rome's dependence on lead water
pipes lead to its decline. It has been suggested that the
aristocracy died off from nothing more complicated than simple lead
poisoning.

Since almost all of the lead absorbed by the human body is
deposited in bones, investigators have studied the bones of ancient
Romans. While some studies did indicate above normal concentrations
of lead, it seems unlikely that water pipes were a contributing
factor. Hodge (1981) has correctly pointed out that lead pipes
would not have caused contamination for two reasons: (1) because
the Roman water contained high concentrations of calcium which
formed deposits inside the pipes, insulating the lead and (2)
because lead will never greatly affect running water. "

Eric Stevens

Another source of lead poisoning I've read about
is from glaze on all sorts of containers. Glass
and therefore glaze in years past had lots of lead
and acid in wine has been blamed for leaching lead
into what was drunk from the containers.

As for lead pipes, we used lead for potable water
supplies into the 20th century, so I would tend
to agree that those were an unlikely source for
lead poisoning even though they have been banned
as a potential source of lead poisoning. Until
just a few years ago, tin/lead solder was used
to connect copper pipes. My whole house, except
for work that I've done since 2000 has lead
soldered pipes and it was built in the late
1980's. Recently, people have been advised to
allow water to run for a minute or two before
drinking to flush out any accumulated lead,
especially if the water is aggressive in an acid
direction. My water, fortunately, is aggressive
in an alkaline direction (hard) and so should be
no problem.

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:11:41 -0500, VtSkier
wrote:

Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:47:30 -0800 (PST), George
wrote:

On Dec 12, 1:52 pm, kT wrote:

It was either a volcanic eruption or an asteroid impact/fireball.

Nope
Lead from their water reticulation system did 'em in

And the world-wide incidence of several years cold weather had nothing
to do with it?

I don't think the plague was a consequence of lead in the Roman water
systems.

Then there is:

http://www.waterhistory.org/histories/rome/

"It has been hypothesized that Rome's dependence on lead water
pipes lead to its decline. It has been suggested that the
aristocracy died off from nothing more complicated than simple lead
poisoning.

Since almost all of the lead absorbed by the human body is
deposited in bones, investigators have studied the bones of ancient
Romans. While some studies did indicate above normal concentrations
of lead, it seems unlikely that water pipes were a contributing
factor. Hodge (1981) has correctly pointed out that lead pipes
would not have caused contamination for two reasons: (1) because
the Roman water contained high concentrations of calcium which
formed deposits inside the pipes, insulating the lead and (2)
because lead will never greatly affect running water. "

Eric Stevens

Another source of lead poisoning I've read about
is from glaze on all sorts of containers. Glass
and therefore glaze in years past had lots of lead
and acid in wine has been blamed for leaching lead
into what was drunk from the containers.

As for lead pipes, we used lead for potable water
supplies into the 20th century, so I would tend
to agree that those were an unlikely source for
lead poisoning even though they have been banned
as a potential source of lead poisoning. Until
just a few years ago, tin/lead solder was used
to connect copper pipes. My whole house, except
for work that I've done since 2000 has lead
soldered pipes and it was built in the late
1980's. Recently, people have been advised to
allow water to run for a minute or two before
drinking to flush out any accumulated lead,
especially if the water is aggressive in an acid
direction. My water, fortunately, is aggressive
in an alkaline direction (hard) and so should be
no problem.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/...poisoning.html

is an interesting article which adds to the debate. I found it when
searching for a reference to a lead salt being used to sweeten wine.
See the third to last paragraph for a reference to that.



Eric Stevens

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:28:05 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:47:30 -0800 (PST), George
wrote:

On Dec 12, 1:52*pm, kT wrote:

It was either a volcanic eruption or an asteroid impact/fireball.

Nope
Lead from their water reticulation system did 'em in

And the world-wide incidence of several years cold weather had nothing
to do with it?

I don't think the plague was a consequence of lead in the Roman water
systems.

Then there is:

http://www.waterhistory.org/histories/rome/

"It has been hypothesized that Rome's dependence on lead water
pipes lead to its decline. It has been suggested that the
aristocracy died off from nothing more complicated than simple lead
poisoning.

Since almost all of the lead absorbed by the human body is
deposited in bones, investigators have studied the bones of ancient
Romans. While some studies did indicate above normal concentrations
of lead, it seems unlikely that water pipes were a contributing
factor. Hodge (1981) has correctly pointed out that lead pipes
would not have caused contamination for two reasons: (1) because
the Roman water contained high concentrations of calcium which
formed deposits inside the pipes, insulating the lead and (2)
because lead will never greatly affect running water. "

I recall a theory that the source of lead intake among the Romans was
a sweet syrup (sapa), which was made from soured wine boiled down in
lead vessels. The acetic acid (vinegar) reacted with the lead to form
lead acetate, which contributed to the sweet taste of the sapa.

Does anyone know of historical/archaeological evidence which supports
this theory?
----
Diogenes )

The wars are long, the peace is frail
The madmen come again . . . .

On Dec 13, 5:11*am, VtSkier wrote:
Until
just a few years ago, tin/lead solder was used
to connect copper pipes. My whole house, except
for work that I've done since 2000 has lead
soldered pipes and it was built in the late
1980's.

I think you'll find that your copper water pipes have been brazed and
not soldered.
Sink and bath wastes used lead sbends but were supplanted by copper
and now plastic..
Such is progress