Buerste wrote:
"Tom P" wrote in message
...
Buerste wrote:
"Roger Coppock" wrote in message
...
(CBS/AP) More than 2 trillion tons of land ice in Greenland,
Antarctica and Alaska have melted since 2003, according to new NASA
satellite data that show the latest signs of what scientists say is
global warming.

More than half of the loss of landlocked ice in the past five years
has occurred in Greenland, based on measurements of ice weight by
NASA's GRACE satellite, said NASA geophysicist Scott Luthcke.

That matters, says CBS News correspondent Vicki Barker, because ice
which melts on land contributes to rising sea levels.

The water melting from Greenland in the past five years would fill
up about 11 Chesapeake Bays, Luthcke said, and the Greenland melt
seems to be accelerating.

NASA scientists planned to present their findings Thursday at the
American Geophysical Union conference in San Francisco.

[ . . . ]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4670944.shtml

Are you saying that more land ice hasn't formed elsewhere to offset
this?
Are you saying that more land ice has formed elsewhere?

That isn't how it works. Plucking data that you like without looking
at the whole picture is not scientific, it's at least misleading. I
didn't make a statement with implications, and it's not my job to do
your homework to make an accurate statement. If Roger had stated
that ALL land-ice was depleting and could prove it, that would be
meaningful. As it sits...it is not. Your position is always suspect
of cherrypicking data, don't be surprised when you're called on it.

Crazyass denialistspeak for "I cannot refute the original article and so
must make up a distraction."

Claudius Denk wrote:
On Dec 16, 2:46 pm, Roger Coppock wrote:
(CBS/AP) More than 2 trillion tons of land ice in Greenland,
Antarctica and Alaska have melted since 2003, according to new NASA
satellite data that show the latest signs of what scientists say is
global warming.

More than half of the loss of landlocked ice in the past five years
has occurred in Greenland, based on measurements of ice weight by
NASA's GRACE satellite, said NASA geophysicist Scott Luthcke.

That matters, says CBS News correspondent Vicki Barker, because ice
which melts on land contributes to rising sea levels.

The water melting from Greenland in the past five years would fill up
about 11 Chesapeake Bays, Luthcke said, and the Greenland melt seems
to be accelerating.

NASA scientists planned to present their findings Thursday at the
American Geophysical Union conference in San Francisco.

[ . . . ]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4670944.shtml

Typical alarmist nonsense. They can say anything they want about
artic ice and nobody is going to dispute them. And they know this.
So they do.

It's the journalists that allow them to get away with this blatant
propaganda that are primarily at fault.

Crazyass Denialistspeak for "I cannot refute a single word in the article
and so must simply make something up."

On Dec 17, 11:35*am, Tom P wrote:
John M. wrote:
On Dec 17, 4:36 am, "
wrote:
On Dec 16, 2:46 pm, Roger Coppock wrote:

(CBS/AP) More than 2 trillion tons of land ice in Greenland,
Antarctica and Alaska have melted since 2003, according to new NASA
satellite data that show the latest signs of what scientists say is
global warming.
More than half of the loss of landlocked ice in the past five years
has occurred in Greenland, based on measurements of ice weight by
NASA's GRACE satellite, said NASA geophysicist Scott Luthcke.
That matters, says CBS News correspondent Vicki Barker, because ice
which melts on land contributes to rising sea levels.
The water melting from Greenland in the past five years would fill up
about 11 Chesapeake Bays, Luthcke said, and the Greenland melt seems
to be accelerating.
NASA scientists planned to present their findings Thursday at the
American Geophysical Union conference in San Francisco.
[ . . . ]
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4670944.shtml
*The estimated volume of all glaciers in the world is about
33 million km. *The mass would be about 10^12 kg per cubic kilometer,
that makes the mass of all glaciers about
3.3*10^7*10^12 = 3.3*10^19 km.
(2^10*12)/(3.3*10^19) = 6.7* 10^(-8). * I don't think the mass of all
the ice in the world can be measured that accurately.- A. McIntire

The more important amount is surely how much is calved from tidewater
glaciers and from broken ice shelves that subsequently float.

What do you mean by "important"?

The land ice that melts is not the only addition to sea levels. The
glacial ice that slides or tumbles into the sea is increasing the
level, although it wasn't clear from the report if this was part of
the 2 trillion tons measured. Ice shelves partly or wholly supported
by a land mass which subsequently break off and float also add to sea
level.

In terms of the impact on the sea
levels caused by ice melting, floating sea ice has no impact - see
Archimedes Principle. Glaciers that reach the sea from the land will
cause a rise in sea level whether they float or whether they melt- also
Archimedes Principle. *In terms of albedo, all forms of ice are equally
important, but sea ice is seasonable and much more variable.

On Dec 17, 9:35*am, T. Keating wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:36:36 -0800 (PST), "





wrote:
On Dec 16, 2:46*pm, Roger Coppock wrote:
(CBS/AP) More than 2 trillion tons of land ice in Greenland,
Antarctica and Alaska have melted since 2003, according to new NASA
satellite data that show the latest signs of what scientists say is
global warming.

More than half of the loss of landlocked ice in the past five years
has occurred in Greenland, based on measurements of ice weight by
NASA's GRACE satellite, said NASA geophysicist Scott Luthcke.

That matters, says CBS News correspondent Vicki Barker, because ice
which melts on land contributes to rising sea levels.

The water melting from Greenland in the past five years would fill up
about 11 Chesapeake Bays, Luthcke said, and the Greenland melt seems
to be accelerating.

NASA scientists planned to present their findings Thursday at the
American Geophysical Union conference in San Francisco.

[ . . . ]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4670944.shtml

The estimated volume of all glaciers in the world is about
33 million km. *The mass would be about 10^12 kg per cubic kilometer,
that makes the mass of all glaciers about
3.3*10^7*10^12 = 3.3*10^19 km.
(2^10*12)/(3.3*10^19) = 6.7* 10^(-8). * I don't think the mass of all
the ice in the world can be measured that accurately.- A. McIntire

Two significant errors
One major one.. Comparing *Kg to Tonns.. *Off by a factor of 1000..
And one minor one.. Fresh water ice has density of 0.9167 g/cm³ at 0
°C
You're right, I stand corrected. 1 Kg is about 2.2005 lbs,
so 1 ton is 2000/2.2005 = 909 kg and 1 kg is .0011 ton.

====

Note: Earth's current thermal imbalance(+2.35W/m^2) is approximately
+3.78e+19 kj per year. *Enough excess thermal energy to melt 111
trillion tonns of ice per year.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wa...ies-d_162.html

One should expect the distribution of excess thermal energy among
Earths major thermal sinks.. Ice caps, oceans, and atmosphere in an
dynamic fashion.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:31:26 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 17, 9:35*am, T. Keating wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:36:36 -0800 (PST), "





wrote:
On Dec 16, 2:46*pm, Roger Coppock wrote:
(CBS/AP) More than 2 trillion tons of land ice in Greenland,
Antarctica and Alaska have melted since 2003, according to new NASA
satellite data that show the latest signs of what scientists say is
global warming.

More than half of the loss of landlocked ice in the past five years
has occurred in Greenland, based on measurements of ice weight by
NASA's GRACE satellite, said NASA geophysicist Scott Luthcke.

That matters, says CBS News correspondent Vicki Barker, because ice
which melts on land contributes to rising sea levels.

The water melting from Greenland in the past five years would fill up
about 11 Chesapeake Bays, Luthcke said, and the Greenland melt seems
to be accelerating.

NASA scientists planned to present their findings Thursday at the
American Geophysical Union conference in San Francisco.

[ . . . ]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4670944.shtml

The estimated volume of all glaciers in the world is about
33 million km. *The mass would be about 10^12 kg per cubic kilometer,
that makes the mass of all glaciers about
3.3*10^7*10^12 = 3.3*10^19 km.
(2^10*12)/(3.3*10^19) = 6.7* 10^(-8). * I don't think the mass of all
the ice in the world can be measured that accurately.- A. McIntire

Two significant errors
One major one.. Comparing *Kg to Tonns.. *Off by a factor of 1000..
And one minor one.. Fresh water ice has density of 0.9167 g/cm³ at 0
°C
You're right, I stand corrected. 1 Kg is about 2.2005 lbs,
so 1 ton is 2000/2.2005 = 909 kg and 1 kg is .0011 ton.

Bzzzt.. learn the diffference..

Tonn == Metric ton or 1000kg exactly..


====

Note: Earth's current thermal imbalance(+2.35W/m^2) is approximately
+3.78e+19 kj per year. *Enough excess thermal energy to melt 111
trillion tonns of ice per year.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wa...ies-d_162.html

One should expect the distribution of excess thermal energy among
Earths major thermal sinks.. Ice caps, oceans, and atmosphere in an
dynamic fashion.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

" wrote:

On Dec 17, 9:35Â*am, T. Keating wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:36:36 -0800 (PST), "





wrote:
On Dec 16, 2:46Â*pm, Roger Coppock wrote:
(CBS/AP) More than 2 trillion tons of land ice in Greenland,
Antarctica and Alaska have melted since 2003, according to new NASA
satellite data that show the latest signs of what scientists say is
global warming.

More than half of the loss of landlocked ice in the past five years
has occurred in Greenland, based on measurements of ice weight by
NASA's GRACE satellite, said NASA geophysicist Scott Luthcke.

That matters, says CBS News correspondent Vicki Barker, because ice
which melts on land contributes to rising sea levels.

The water melting from Greenland in the past five years would fill up
about 11 Chesapeake Bays, Luthcke said, and the Greenland melt seems
to be accelerating.

NASA scientists planned to present their findings Thursday at the
American Geophysical Union conference in San Francisco.

[ . . . ]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4670944.shtml

The estimated volume of all glaciers in the world is about
33 million km. Â*The mass would be about 10^12 kg per cubic kilometer,
that makes the mass of all glaciers about
3.3*10^7*10^12 = 3.3*10^19 km.
(2^10*12)/(3.3*10^19) = 6.7* 10^(-8). Â* I don't think the mass of all
the ice in the world can be measured that accurately.- A. McIntire

Two significant errors
One major one.. Comparing Â*Kg to Tonns.. Â*Off by a factor of 1000..
And one minor one.. Fresh water ice has density of 0.9167 g/cm³ at 0
°C
You're right, I stand corrected. 1 Kg is about 2.2005 lbs,
so 1 ton is 2000/2.2005 = 909 kg and 1 kg is .0011 ton.


Or, one tonne = 1,000 Kilograms, or about 2240 pounds.

"marcodbeast" wrote in message
...
Buerste wrote:
"Tom P" wrote in message
...
Buerste wrote:
"Roger Coppock" wrote in message
...
(CBS/AP) More than 2 trillion tons of land ice in Greenland,
Antarctica and Alaska have melted since 2003, according to new NASA
satellite data that show the latest signs of what scientists say is
global warming.

More than half of the loss of landlocked ice in the past five years
has occurred in Greenland, based on measurements of ice weight by
NASA's GRACE satellite, said NASA geophysicist Scott Luthcke.

That matters, says CBS News correspondent Vicki Barker, because ice
which melts on land contributes to rising sea levels.

The water melting from Greenland in the past five years would fill
up about 11 Chesapeake Bays, Luthcke said, and the Greenland melt
seems to be accelerating.

NASA scientists planned to present their findings Thursday at the
American Geophysical Union conference in San Francisco.

[ . . . ]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4670944.shtml

Are you saying that more land ice hasn't formed elsewhere to offset
this?
Are you saying that more land ice has formed elsewhere?

That isn't how it works. Plucking data that you like without looking
at the whole picture is not scientific, it's at least misleading. I
didn't make a statement with implications, and it's not my job to do
your homework to make an accurate statement. If Roger had stated
that ALL land-ice was depleting and could prove it, that would be
meaningful. As it sits...it is not. Your position is always suspect
of cherrypicking data, don't be surprised when you're called on it.

Crazyass denialistspeak for "I cannot refute the original article and so
must make up a distraction."


Just prove there is a net land-ice loss. Or, stfu.

On Dec 18, 12:15*pm, "Buerste" wrote:
"marcodbeast" wrote in message

...



Buerste wrote:
"Tom P" wrote in message
...
Buerste wrote:
"Roger Coppock" wrote in message
....
(CBS/AP) More than 2 trillion tons of land ice in Greenland,
Antarctica and Alaska have melted since 2003, according to new NASA
satellite data that show the latest signs of what scientists say is
global warming.

More than half of the loss of landlocked ice in the past five years
has occurred in Greenland, based on measurements of ice weight by
NASA's GRACE satellite, said NASA geophysicist Scott Luthcke.

That matters, says CBS News correspondent Vicki Barker, because ice
which melts on land contributes to rising sea levels.

The water melting from Greenland in the past five years would fill
up about 11 Chesapeake Bays, Luthcke said, and the Greenland melt
seems to be accelerating.

NASA scientists planned to present their findings Thursday at the
American Geophysical Union conference in San Francisco.

[ . . . ]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4670944.shtml

Are you saying that more land ice hasn't formed elsewhere to offset
this?
Are you saying that more land ice has formed elsewhere?

That isn't how it works. *Plucking data that you like without looking
at the whole picture is not scientific, it's at least misleading. *I
didn't make a statement with implications, and it's not my job to do
your homework to make an accurate statement. *If Roger had stated
that ALL land-ice was depleting and could prove it, that would be
meaningful. *As it sits...it is not. *Your position is always suspect
of cherrypicking data, don't be surprised when you're called on it.

*Crazyass denialistspeak for "I cannot refute the original article and so
must make up a distraction."

Just prove there is a net land-ice loss. *Or, stfu.

In what form would you like this proof? Will changes in gravity
measurements from satellite GRACE be sufficient? Or would you rather
wait until so much ice has melted (around 50 - 100 years from now)
that it is obvious to the naked eye.

On Dec 18, 2:27*am, T. Keating wrote:
On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:31:26 -0800 (PST), "



wrote:
On Dec 17, 9:35*am, T. Keating wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:36:36 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
On Dec 16, 2:46*pm, Roger Coppock wrote:
(CBS/AP) More than 2 trillion tons of land ice in Greenland,
Antarctica and Alaska have melted since 2003, according to new NASA
satellite data that show the latest signs of what scientists say is
global warming.

More than half of the loss of landlocked ice in the past five years
has occurred in Greenland, based on measurements of ice weight by
NASA's GRACE satellite, said NASA geophysicist Scott Luthcke.

That matters, says CBS News correspondent Vicki Barker, because ice
which melts on land contributes to rising sea levels.

The water melting from Greenland in the past five years would fill up
about 11 Chesapeake Bays, Luthcke said, and the Greenland melt seems
to be accelerating.

NASA scientists planned to present their findings Thursday at the
American Geophysical Union conference in San Francisco.

[ . . . ]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4670944.shtml

The estimated volume of all glaciers in the world is about
33 million km. *The mass would be about 10^12 kg per cubic kilometer,
that makes the mass of all glaciers about
3.3*10^7*10^12 = 3.3*10^19 km.
(2^10*12)/(3.3*10^19) = 6.7* 10^(-8). * I don't think the mass of all
the ice in the world can be measured that accurately.- A. McIntire

Two significant errors
One major one.. Comparing *Kg to Tonns.. *Off by a factor of 1000...
And one minor one.. Fresh water ice has density of 0.9167 g/cm³ at 0
°C
You're right, I stand corrected. 1 Kg is about 2.2005 lbs,
so 1 ton is 2000/2.2005 = 909 kg and *1 kg is .0011 ton.

Bzzzt.. learn the diffference.. *

Tonn *== Metric ton or 1000kg exactly..

How strange that he ignored the rest of your post i.e. the really
interesting bit below. Behaviour like that usually marks out
denialists. Also the metric ton usually has an 'e' added; it is a
French word originally.

====

Note: Earth's current thermal imbalance(+2.35W/m^2) is approximately
+3.78e+19 kj per year. *Enough excess thermal energy to melt 111
trillion tonns of ice per year.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wa...ies-d_162.html

One should expect the distribution of excess thermal energy among
Earths major thermal sinks.. Ice caps, oceans, and atmosphere in an
dynamic fashion.

In which case the oceans are seemingly taking up the bulk of it just
now. 2% in melting ice, probably no more than a few percent percent
in atmospheric warming, depending on what estimate one accepts for
annual temperature increase in the troposphere, so at least 90% into
the oceans.

On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 04:41:19 -0800 (PST), "John M."
wrote:

On Dec 18, 2:27*am, T. Keating wrote:
On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:31:26 -0800 (PST), "



wrote:
On Dec 17, 9:35*am, T. Keating wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:36:36 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
On Dec 16, 2:46*pm, Roger Coppock wrote:
(CBS/AP) More than 2 trillion tons of land ice in Greenland,
Antarctica and Alaska have melted since 2003, according to new NASA
satellite data that show the latest signs of what scientists say is
global warming.

More than half of the loss of landlocked ice in the past five years
has occurred in Greenland, based on measurements of ice weight by
NASA's GRACE satellite, said NASA geophysicist Scott Luthcke.

That matters, says CBS News correspondent Vicki Barker, because ice
which melts on land contributes to rising sea levels.

The water melting from Greenland in the past five years would fill up
about 11 Chesapeake Bays, Luthcke said, and the Greenland melt seems
to be accelerating.

NASA scientists planned to present their findings Thursday at the
American Geophysical Union conference in San Francisco.

[ . . . ]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4670944.shtml

The estimated volume of all glaciers in the world is about
33 million km. *The mass would be about 10^12 kg per cubic kilometer,
that makes the mass of all glaciers about
3.3*10^7*10^12 = 3.3*10^19 km.
(2^10*12)/(3.3*10^19) = 6.7* 10^(-8). * I don't think the mass of all
the ice in the world can be measured that accurately.- A. McIntire

Two significant errors
One major one.. Comparing *Kg to Tonns.. *Off by a factor of 1000..
And one minor one.. Fresh water ice has density of 0.9167 g/cm³ at 0
°C
You're right, I stand corrected. 1 Kg is about 2.2005 lbs,
so 1 ton is 2000/2.2005 = 909 kg and *1 kg is .0011 ton.

Bzzzt.. learn the diffference.. *

Tonn *== Metric ton or 1000kg exactly..

How strange that he ignored the rest of your post i.e. the really
interesting bit below. Behaviour like that usually marks out
denialists. Also the metric ton usually has an 'e' added; it is a
French word originally.

====

Note: Earth's current thermal imbalance(+2.35W/m^2) is approximately
+3.78e+19 kj per year. *Enough excess thermal energy to melt 111
trillion tonns of ice per year.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wa...ies-d_162.html

One should expect the distribution of excess thermal energy among
Earths major thermal sinks.. Ice caps, oceans, and atmosphere in an
dynamic fashion.

In which case the oceans are seemingly taking up the bulk of it just
now. 2% in melting ice, probably no more than a few percent percent
in atmospheric warming, depending on what estimate one accepts for
annual temperature increase in the troposphere, so at least 90% into
the oceans.


The original article stated 2T tonn Ice mass loss since 2003. A
multiyear(4-5yr) period thus the actual percentage of excess thermal
energy going into ice melt is less than 1%..

That indicates that the ice melt component of AGW sea level rise
could, at some point in the future, increase by more than a 100x.