On Apr 30, 10:51*am, What A. Fool wrote:
On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 02:19:14 -0700 (PDT), "





wrote:
On Apr 28, 11:21*am, What A. Fool wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:36:20 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Apr 27, 9:12*am, Bill Ward wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 14:45:43 -0700, wrote:
What about at the molecular level. A piece of black charcoal on the
ground is hit by light ... [then what happens ...]

It gets warmer...

Carbon atoms get motion, Some of that motion causes radiation into
air? Some of that motion transfers from touching air molecules
[conduction]? There is no convection in this first step? How much
"heat" transfers from radiaton and how much from conduction?

* * * * * *A good question. * * *Apparently there is good scientific
measurements of conduction with coefficients of thermal conduction
in charts in engineering books.

* * * * * I would love to find that type of information for Infra-Red
radiation.
* * * * * There are infra-red detectors, infra-red optical devices,
but I guess none that can measure the amount of energy
radiated by a square meter of various materials at various
temperatures.

* * * * * I will be looking for that information if it is ever
available.

this is interesting

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0502/0502041.pdf

* * * * * There is no question that cosmic rays can affect clouds
and the upper atmosphere-ionosphere, but pinning down any
concrete numbers would be difficult, and probably useless in
anything other than better understanding.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Leaving the introduction of energy to the biosphere from other than
the sun for one moment, if it is the case that there are differeneces
between the interface between the ground/ocean and air, as against the
purely gas regions above, and there clearly is, then logically form a
probability perspective you would expect different rates of adjustment
to the same stimilus in both regions.

It would be a miracle if at 15 seconds past sunrise the atmosphere
above caused cooling of exactly the amount that the earth below
warmed.

I tell you one thing they get a lot of bloody cloud up and down in the
60's latitudes:

http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~ign...1_0_DN.obs.jpg
broken out of:
http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~ignatius/CloudMap/

On May 2, 7:22*pm, " wrote:
On Apr 30, 10:51*am, What A. Fool wrote:





On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 02:19:14 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Apr 28, 11:21*am, What A. Fool wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:36:20 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Apr 27, 9:12*am, Bill Ward wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 14:45:43 -0700, wrote:
What about at the molecular level. A piece of black charcoal on the
ground is hit by light ... [then what happens ...]

It gets warmer...

Carbon atoms get motion, Some of that motion causes radiation into
air? Some of that motion transfers from touching air molecules
[conduction]? There is no convection in this first step? How much
"heat" transfers from radiaton and how much from conduction?

* * * * * *A good question. * * *Apparently there is good scientific
measurements of conduction with coefficients of thermal conduction
in charts in engineering books.

* * * * * I would love to find that type of information for Infra-Red
radiation.
* * * * * There are infra-red detectors, infra-red optical devices,
but I guess none that can measure the amount of energy
radiated by a square meter of various materials at various
temperatures.

* * * * * I will be looking for that information if it is ever
available.

this is interesting

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0502/0502041.pdf

* * * * * There is no question that cosmic rays can affect clouds
and the upper atmosphere-ionosphere, but pinning down any
concrete numbers would be difficult, and probably useless in
anything other than better understanding.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Leaving the introduction of energy to the biosphere from other than
the sun for one moment, if it is the case that there are differeneces
between the interface between the ground/ocean and air, as against the
purely gas regions above, and there clearly is, then logically form a
probability perspective you would expect different rates of adjustment
to the same stimilus in both regions.

It would be a miracle if at 15 seconds past sunrise the atmosphere
above caused cooling of exactly the amount that the earth below
warmed.

I tell you one thing they get a lot of bloody cloud up and down in the
60's latitudes:

http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~ign...1_0_DN.obs.jpg
broken out of:http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~ignatius/CloudMap/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And clearly the precipitation in the tropics peaks with the heat and
at the poles with the cold:

http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~ign..._PHASE.obs.jpg

On May 2, 7:31*pm, " wrote:
On May 2, 7:22*pm, " wrote:





On Apr 30, 10:51*am, What A. Fool wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 02:19:14 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Apr 28, 11:21*am, What A. Fool wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:36:20 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Apr 27, 9:12*am, Bill Ward wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 14:45:43 -0700, wrote:
What about at the molecular level. A piece of black charcoal on the
ground is hit by light ... [then what happens ...]

It gets warmer...

Carbon atoms get motion, Some of that motion causes radiation into
air? Some of that motion transfers from touching air molecules
[conduction]? There is no convection in this first step? How much
"heat" transfers from radiaton and how much from conduction?

* * * * * *A good question. * * *Apparently there is good scientific
measurements of conduction with coefficients of thermal conduction
in charts in engineering books.

* * * * * I would love to find that type of information for Infra-Red
radiation.
* * * * * There are infra-red detectors, infra-red optical devices,
but I guess none that can measure the amount of energy
radiated by a square meter of various materials at various
temperatures.

* * * * * I will be looking for that information if it is ever
available.

this is interesting

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0502/0502041.pdf

* * * * * There is no question that cosmic rays can affect clouds
and the upper atmosphere-ionosphere, but pinning down any
concrete numbers would be difficult, and probably useless in
anything other than better understanding.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Leaving the introduction of energy to the biosphere from other than
the sun for one moment, if it is the case that there are differeneces
between the interface between the ground/ocean and air, as against the
purely gas regions above, and there clearly is, then logically form a
probability perspective you would expect different rates of adjustment
to the same stimilus in both regions.

It would be a miracle if at 15 seconds past sunrise the atmosphere
above caused cooling of exactly the amount that the earth below
warmed.

I tell you one thing they get a lot of bloody cloud up and down in the
60's latitudes:

http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~ign...1_0_DN.obs.jpg
broken out of:http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~ign...CloudMap/-Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And clearly the precipitation in the tropics peaks with the heat and
at the poles with the cold:

http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~ign..._0_PHASE.o...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

CO2 we know stays in the atmosphere for lets say 100 years.

http://www.kfoa.co.nz/faqs.htm#5

Though when water vapor turns to liquid water up there I guess more
CO2 dissolves into it than say O2 or N2

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ga...er-d_1148.html

On May 2, 7:31*pm, " wrote:
On May 2, 7:22*pm, " wrote:





On Apr 30, 10:51*am, What A. Fool wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 02:19:14 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Apr 28, 11:21*am, What A. Fool wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:36:20 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Apr 27, 9:12*am, Bill Ward wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 14:45:43 -0700, wrote:
What about at the molecular level. A piece of black charcoal on the
ground is hit by light ... [then what happens ...]

It gets warmer...

Carbon atoms get motion, Some of that motion causes radiation into
air? Some of that motion transfers from touching air molecules
[conduction]? There is no convection in this first step? How much
"heat" transfers from radiaton and how much from conduction?

* * * * * *A good question. * * *Apparently there is good scientific
measurements of conduction with coefficients of thermal conduction
in charts in engineering books.

* * * * * I would love to find that type of information for Infra-Red
radiation.
* * * * * There are infra-red detectors, infra-red optical devices,
but I guess none that can measure the amount of energy
radiated by a square meter of various materials at various
temperatures.

* * * * * I will be looking for that information if it is ever
available.

this is interesting

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0502/0502041.pdf

* * * * * There is no question that cosmic rays can affect clouds
and the upper atmosphere-ionosphere, but pinning down any
concrete numbers would be difficult, and probably useless in
anything other than better understanding.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Leaving the introduction of energy to the biosphere from other than
the sun for one moment, if it is the case that there are differeneces
between the interface between the ground/ocean and air, as against the
purely gas regions above, and there clearly is, then logically form a
probability perspective you would expect different rates of adjustment
to the same stimilus in both regions.

It would be a miracle if at 15 seconds past sunrise the atmosphere
above caused cooling of exactly the amount that the earth below
warmed.

I tell you one thing they get a lot of bloody cloud up and down in the
60's latitudes:

http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~ign...1_0_DN.obs.jpg
broken out of:http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~ign...CloudMap/-Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And clearly the precipitation in the tropics peaks with the heat and
at the poles with the cold:

http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~ign..._0_PHASE.o...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And up 60N way the cloudiest month is before the highest precipitation
month which is interesting, and then poles seem to have a tendency to
be cloudiest in the summer and highest precipitation in the winter
which is interesting.

On Sat, 2 May 2009 02:22:33 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

[snip]
On Apr 30, 10:51Â*am, What A. Fool wrote:
Leaving the introduction of energy to the biosphere from other than
the sun for one moment, if it is the case that there are differeneces
between the interface between the ground/ocean and air, as against the
purely gas regions above, and there clearly is, then logically form a
probability perspective you would expect different rates of adjustment
to the same stimilus in both regions.

It would be a miracle if at 15 seconds past sunrise the atmosphere
above caused cooling of exactly the amount that the earth below
warmed.

I tell you one thing they get a lot of bloody cloud up and down in the
60's latitudes:

http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~ign...1_0_DN.obs.jpg
broken out of:
http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~ignatius/CloudMap/


Actually the clouds are the weather (where weather means
anything other than clear skies), even the jet stream path follows
the edges of the pressure areas visually defined by clouds.

I have tried to discuss the process of low barometric pressure
with meteorologists, where condensation has to cause a reduction
in pressure because there is a 200:1 ratio of volume between water
and vapor.

But the formation of cloud seems so subtle, this process seems
to be ignored or almost denied. Where it really comes into play is
in extreme weather where condensation and precipitation can be
going on at the same time, and where the extremes of barometric
pressures are found in cyclonics.

So clouds do more than just block and reflect and diffuse the
sun and radiate broadband both to space and downward, they are
very involved in weather other than clear skies.

This may be so true that surface IR radiation plays a minor
role where clouds exist, making any global averages almost
irrelevant.

On Sat, 2 May 2009 02:31:18 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

[snip]
And clearly the precipitation in the tropics peaks with the heat and
at the poles with the cold:

http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~ign..._PHASE.obs.jpg


Only in that the heat and low density due to moisture driving
convection up to where cold air causes the precipitation.

Precipitation may be discussed as droplets finding a particle
to cling to, things can get really extreme when there is a strong
interface of temperature differences.

The weather phenomenon called "derecho" (straight line
winds moving rapidly), I was in one in 1969, and watched the
radar of another a couple of years ago, the only two I am
aware of in 80 years.
The one in 1969 had winds where I was near Lake Erie
of well over 100 miles per hour, and lasted at least 5 minutes,
taking down more than half of the mature trees in Lakewood,
Ohio where trees were everywhere.

It may not have been apparent, but precipitation
must have been driving that.

On Sat, 2 May 2009 02:51:24 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On May 2, 7:31Â*pm, " wrote:
On May 2, 7:22Â*pm, " wrote:

On Apr 30, 10:51Â*am, What A. Fool wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 02:19:14 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Apr 28, 11:21Â*am, What A. Fool wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:36:20 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Apr 27, 9:12Â*am, Bill Ward wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 14:45:43 -0700, wrote:
What about at the molecular level. A piece of black charcoal on the
ground is hit by light ... [then what happens ...]

It gets warmer...

Carbon atoms get motion, Some of that motion causes radiation into
air? Some of that motion transfers from touching air molecules
[conduction]? There is no convection in this first step? How much
"heat" transfers from radiaton and how much from conduction?

Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*A good question. Â* Â* Â*Apparently there is good scientific
measurements of conduction with coefficients of thermal conduction
in charts in engineering books.

Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* I would love to find that type of information for Infra-Red
radiation.
Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* There are infra-red detectors, infra-red optical devices,
but I guess none that can measure the amount of energy
radiated by a square meter of various materials at various
temperatures.

Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* I will be looking for that information if it is ever
available.

this is interesting

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0502/0502041.pdf

Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* There is no question that cosmic rays can affect clouds
and the upper atmosphere-ionosphere, but pinning down any
concrete numbers would be difficult, and probably useless in
anything other than better understanding.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Leaving the introduction of energy to the biosphere from other than
the sun for one moment, if it is the case that there are differeneces
between the interface between the ground/ocean and air, as against the
purely gas regions above, and there clearly is, then logically form a
probability perspective you would expect different rates of adjustment
to the same stimilus in both regions.

It would be a miracle if at 15 seconds past sunrise the atmosphere
above caused cooling of exactly the amount that the earth below
warmed.

I tell you one thing they get a lot of bloody cloud up and down in the
60's latitudes:

http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~ign...1_0_DN.obs.jpg
broken out of:http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~ign...CloudMap/-Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And clearly the precipitation in the tropics peaks with the heat and
at the poles with the cold:

http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~ign..._0_PHASE.o...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

CO2 we know stays in the atmosphere for lets say 100 years.

http://www.kfoa.co.nz/faqs.htm#5

Though when water vapor turns to liquid water up there I guess more
CO2 dissolves into it than say O2 or N2

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ga...er-d_1148.html


Yes, but that probably means that CO2 doesn't stay in the
atmosphere that long, it changes rapidly too, but the annual change
is substantial, obviously seasonal and more pronounced in the northern
hemisphere because of more land area and the shedding of leaves.

To what extent Arrhenius meant this when he talked of carbonic
acid is debatable, in fact, there is obviously a lot more physics
possible with water vapor and CO2 than with the ocean and CO2,
there is not too many ways CO2 can get into the ocean.