CO2 Level at Least 800,000-Year High!

According to the Earth System Research Laboratory of the
US National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration, the May
monthly mean CO2 concentration measured at Mauna Loa was
389.47 ppmv. This is a new maximum for this data set,
the longest term and most frequently referenced CO2 data.

Also, according to the IPCC WG1 AR4 list of robust findings:

"Current atmospheric concentrations of CO2 and CH4,
and their associated positive radiative forcing,
far exceed those determined from ice core
measurements spanning the last 650,000 years."

The EPICA Dome C record extends this to 800,000 years.
Please see data from Lüthi, D et al. (2008) at
http://doi.pangaea.de/10.1594/PANGAE...01?format=html

For a graph and curve fit of data taken at Mauna Loa,
please see:
http://members.cox.net/rcoppock/CO2-6DegreesFreedom.jpg

Clearly, the atmospheric CO2 concentration is rising
exponentially. To see this, compare the trend of the
red colored points on the graph I have provided with
a straight line.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
These data may be found at:
ftp://ftp.cmdl.noaa.gov/ccg/co2/trends/co2_mm_mlo.txt

The yearly means of the 607 points of monthly data follow:
YEAR CO2_ppmv
1958 315.33 8 months of data
1959 315.98
1960 316.91
1961 317.64
1962 318.45
1963 318.99
1964 319.20 9 months of data
1965 320.04
1966 321.38
1967 322.16
1968 323.04
1969 324.62
1970 325.68
1971 326.32
1972 327.45
1973 329.68
1974 330.17
1975 331.13 11 months of data
1976 332.05
1977 333.78
1978 335.41
1979 336.78
1980 338.68
1981 340.11
1982 341.22
1983 342.84
1984 344.22 11 months of data
1985 345.87
1986 347.19
1987 348.98
1988 351.45
1989 352.90
1990 354.16
1991 355.48
1992 356.27
1993 356.95
1994 358.64
1995 360.63
1996 362.37
1997 363.47
1998 366.50
1999 368.14
2000 369.40
2001 371.07
2002 373.17
2003 375.78
2004 377.52
2005 379.76
2006 381.85
2007 383.71
2008 385.57
2009 388.15 4 months of data

[Watch the fossil fools dust off an ancient archive of
pseudo-science and arcane mathematics in a lame attempt
to challenge these basic facts. That's entertainment!

One lie that fossil fools frequently fib is that there
is no relationship between CO2 and global mean surface
temperature, or that this relationship has broken down
recently. For the truth, a scatter-plot of this strong
relationship, please see:

http://members.cox.net/rcoppock/TempVsCO2.jpg

N= 51, R^2 = 0.78
Non-Zero Slope F-statistic: 177.709 on 1 and 49 DF,
p-value: 2.2e-16 ]

On May 12, 4:51*pm, Roger Coppock wrote:
CO2 Level at Least 800,000-Year High!

According to the Earth System Research Laboratory of the
US National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration, the May
monthly mean CO2 concentration measured at Mauna Loa was
389.47 ppmv. *This is a new maximum for this data set,
the longest term and most frequently referenced CO2 data.

Also, according to the IPCC WG1 AR4 list of robust findings:

* *"Current atmospheric concentrations of CO2 and CH4,
* * and their associated positive radiative forcing,
* * far exceed those determined from ice core
* * measurements spanning the last 650,000 years."

The EPICA Dome C record extends this to 800,000 years.
Please see data from Lüthi, D et al. (2008) athttp://doi.pangaea.de/10.1594/PANGAEA.710901?format=html

For a graph and curve fit of data taken at Mauna Loa,
please see:http://members.cox.net/rcoppock/CO2-6DegreesFreedom.jpg

Clearly, the atmospheric CO2 concentration is rising
exponentially. *To see this, compare the trend of the
red colored points on the graph I have provided with
a straight line.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
These data may be found at:ftp://ftp.cmdl.noaa.gov/ccg/co2/trends/co2_mm_mlo.txt

The yearly means of the 607 points of monthly data follow:
YEAR CO2_ppmv
1958 315.33 * 8 months of data
1959 315.98
1960 316.91
1961 317.64
1962 318.45
1963 318.99
1964 319.20 * 9 months of data
1965 320.04
1966 321.38
1967 322.16
1968 323.04
1969 324.62
1970 325.68
1971 326.32
1972 327.45
1973 329.68
1974 330.17
1975 331.13 * 11 months of data
1976 332.05
1977 333.78
1978 335.41
1979 336.78
1980 338.68
1981 340.11
1982 341.22
1983 342.84
1984 344.22 * 11 months of data
1985 345.87
1986 347.19
1987 348.98
1988 351.45
1989 352.90
1990 354.16
1991 355.48
1992 356.27
1993 356.95
1994 358.64
1995 360.63
1996 362.37
1997 363.47
1998 366.50
1999 368.14
2000 369.40
2001 371.07
2002 373.17
2003 375.78
2004 377.52
2005 379.76
2006 381.85
2007 383.71
2008 385.57
2009 388.15 * 4 months of data

[Watch the fossil fools dust off an ancient archive of
pseudo-science and arcane mathematics in a lame attempt
to challenge these basic facts. *That's entertainment!

One lie that fossil fools frequently fib is that there
is no relationship between CO2 and global mean surface
temperature, or that this relationship has broken down
recently. *For the truth, a scatter-plot of this strong
relationship, please see:

* *http://members.cox.net/rcoppock/TempVsCO2.jpg

N= 51, *R^2 = 0.78
Non-Zero Slope F-statistic: *177.709 on 1 and 49 DF,
p-value: 2.2e-16 *]

It depends on what scal you are using doens't it..
But even then, 800,000 years ago the levels were higher then
today.
This chart is based on "GEOCARB III (Berner and Kothavala
2001), COPSE (Bergmann et al. 2004) and Rothman (2001). These are
compared to the carbon dioxide measurement database of Royer et al.
(2004) and a 30 Myr filtered average of those data. Error envelopes
are shown when they were available. The right hand scale shows the
ratio of these measurements to the estimated average for the last
several million years (the Quaternary). Customary labels for the
periods of geologic time appear at the bottom."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ph...on_Dioxide.png

According to this chart, we are damn close to of the lowest
atmospheric CO2 levels in the last 500 million years.

We are about 30% higher then about 100 - 150 years ago, but it
has been almost 600 % higher then now about 110 million years ago.
More then 2000 ppmv, compared to about 385 today.

And even much higher then that 500 million years ago.

On that scale, CO2 level today is at the bottom of the chart... I
guess that is why some people say that the Earth today is CO2
starved.

Nope, I won't lose any sleep.

This is just more Gorebull Warming "Let's Scare The People" Alarmism

It depends on what scale you are using doesn't it.. ?
But even then, 800,000 years ago the CO2 levels were higher then
today.
The following chart is based on "GEOCARB III (Berner and
Kothavala
2001), COPSE (Bergmann et al. 2004) and Rothman (2001). These are
compared to the carbon dioxide measurement database of Royer et al.
(2004) and a 30 Myr filtered average of those data. Error envelopes
are shown when they were available. The right hand scale shows the
ratio of these measurements to the estimated average for the last
several million years (the Quaternary). Customary labels for the
periods of geologic time appear at the bottom."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ph...on_Dioxide.png


According to this chart, we are damn close to of the lowest
atmospheric CO2 levels in the last 500 million years.

We are about 30% higher then about 100 - 150 years ago, but it
has been almost 600 % higher then now about 110 million years ago.
More then 2000 ppmv, compared to about 385 today.

And even much higher then that 500 million years ago.

On that scale, CO2 level today is at the bottom of the chart... I
guess that is why some people say that the Earth today is CO2
starved.

Nope, I won't lose any sleep.

This is just more Gorebull Warming "Let's Scare The People" Alarmism

On May 13, 11:11 am, Catoni wrote:
It depends on what scale you are using doesn't it.. ?
But even then, 800,000 years ago the CO2 levels were higher then
today.
The following chart is based on "GEOCARB III (Berner and
Kothavala
2001), COPSE (Bergmann et al. 2004) and Rothman (2001). These are
compared to the carbon dioxide measurement database of Royer et al.
(2004) and a 30 Myr filtered average of those data. Error envelopes
are shown when they were available. The right hand scale shows the
ratio of these measurements to the estimated average for the last
several million years (the Quaternary). Customary labels for the
periods of geologic time appear at the bottom."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ph...on_Dioxide.png

According to this chart, we are damn close to of the lowest
atmospheric CO2 levels in the last 500 million years.

We are about 30% higher then about 100 - 150 years ago, but it
has been almost 600 % higher then now about 110 million years ago.
More then 2000 ppmv, compared to about 385 today.


Your maths is wrong. 2000ppmv is only 415% higher than now not 600%.
But why is this relevant? 110 mya is way before the first humans or
even the first apes. It's 55mya prior to the PETM which is 55mya
earlier than today, which episode wiped out much of life on Earth.
Nobody was affected because nobody existed.


And even much higher then that 500 million years ago.


And even less relevant. This was before the carboniferous era. What is
your point?


On that scale, CO2 level today is at the bottom of the chart...


Why is this relevant to pronouncing on the pertinence of CO2 to human
wellbeing. There were not 6.5 billion humans 500 million or 110
million years ago.


I
guess that is why some people say that the Earth today is CO2
starved.


I rarely hear people saying this, and those who do are either
dissembling or are ignorant and unthinking.

Fran

On May 12, 11:02*pm, Fran wrote:
On May 13, 11:11 am, Catoni wrote:





* It depends on what scale you are using doesn't it.. ?
* But even then, 800,000 years ago the CO2 levels were higher then
today.
* * The following chart *is based on * "GEOCARB III (Berner and
Kothavala
2001), COPSE (Bergmann et al. 2004) and Rothman (2001). These are
compared to the carbon dioxide measurement database of Royer et al.
(2004) and a 30 Myr filtered average of those data. Error envelopes
are shown when they were available. The right hand scale shows the
ratio of these measurements to the estimated average for the last
several million years (the Quaternary). Customary labels for the
periods of geologic time appear at the bottom."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ph...on_Dioxide.png

* * According to this chart, we are damn close to of the lowest
atmospheric CO2 levels in the last 500 million years.

* * We are about 30% higher then about 100 - 150 years ago, * but it
has been almost *600 % higher then now about 110 million years ago.
More then 2000 ppmv, compared to about 385 today.

Your maths is wrong. 2000ppmv is only 415% higher than now not 600%.
But why is this relevant? 110 mya is way before the first humans or
even the first apes. It's 55mya prior to the PETM which is 55mya
earlier than today, which episode wiped out much of life on Earth.
Nobody was affected because nobody existed.

And even much higher then that 500 million years ago.

And even less relevant. This was before the carboniferous era. What is
your point?

On that scale, CO2 level today is at the bottom of the chart...

Why is this relevant to pronouncing on the pertinence of CO2 to human
wellbeing. There were not 6.5 billion humans 500 million or 110
million years ago.

I
guess that is why some people say that the Earth today is CO2
starved.

I rarely hear people saying this, and those who do are either
dissembling or are ignorant and unthinking.

Fran- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Fran... you might want to check your math... Unless my math skills
have fallen off very sharply as I age, (possible I suppose), then 2000
is 526.3... % of 380 . Lets say 526 %to make it simple shall we? We
really don't need use decimal points in this case.

Or .. if we wish to say that atmospheric CO2 is now 385ppmv, then...
it would come to about 519.5%

Double checking.... It looks to me as if I am correct. Can you see
where I might be mistaken Fran?


I can't remember what it is you teach,,, not math I take it..

My point is that in the last 500 million years... CO2 has been much
much higher then now...
During the height of the reign of the dinosaurs, as much as 500%
and more, then it is now.

If you take the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere for that time
period, then right now, we are pretty well close to the bottom of the
chart.. Relatively very little CO2 in the atmosphere... I suppose
that's why they call it a "trace"gas... because there is only a trace
of it... Thank goodness too, or we would have no photosynthesis.. No
or very little life on Earth... it's vital... And some people are now
labelling it pollution...
Please don't give me the analogy of a little bit of cyanide.
That is such a worn out poor analogy, and has been used here before by
Alarmists.

It is almost as low as it ever has been... so I see no cause for
alarm at all.

I would like to make another point if I may,,, that in the
original post by our dear friend Roger Coppock, the statemnt that the
level of CO2 in the atmosphere now reaching the level that it was
800,000 years ago is very badly in error, if it is not an outright
lie.

Catoni

On May 12, 4:51*pm, Roger Coppock wrote:
CO2 Level at Least 800,000-Year High!

According to the Earth System Research Laboratory of the
US National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration, the May
monthly mean CO2 concentration measured at Mauna Loa was
389.47 ppmv. *This is a new maximum for this data set,
the longest term and most frequently referenced CO2 data.

Also, according to the IPCC WG1 AR4 list of robust findings:

* *"Current atmospheric concentrations of CO2 and CH4,
* * and their associated positive radiative forcing,
* * far exceed those determined from ice core
* * measurements spanning the last 650,000 years."

•• More AGW hogwash
NOAA takes measurements on top of an active volcano

Talk about loading the dice.
Then they talk about "positive radiative forcing"
which is nothing more than a smokescreen for
junk science.

- -
In real science the burden of proof is always on
the proposer, never on the sceptics. So far
neither IPCC nor has anyone else provide one
iota of valid data for global warming nor have
they provided data that climate change is being
effected by commerce and industry, and not by
natural phenomena.

Fran- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Fran... you might want to check your math... Unless my math skills
have fallen off very sharply as I age, (inevitable, over time I
suppose), then 2000
is 526.3... % of 380 . Lets say 526 %to make it simple shall we? We
really don't need use decimal points in this case.

Or .. if we wish to say that atmospheric CO2 is now 385ppmv, then...
it would come to about 519.5%

To be honest, my original rough guess of 600% was indeed wrong as
well. Both of us need a math refresher course I guess.

Double checking.... It looks to me as if I am correct now. Can you
see
where I might be mistaken Fran?


I can't remember what it is you teach Fran,,,but it's not math I
take it..


My point is that in the last 500 million years... CO2 has been
much
much higher then now...
During the height of the reign of the dinosaurs, as much as 500%
and more, then it is now.


If you take the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere for that time
period, then right now, we are pretty well close to the bottom of the
chart.. Relatively very little CO2 in the atmosphere... I suppose
that's why they call it a "trace"gas... because there is only a trace
of it... Thank goodness too, or we would have no photosynthesis.. No
or very little life on Earth... it's vital... And some people are
now
labelling it pollution...
Please don't give me the analogy of a little bit of cyanide.
That is such a worn out poor analogy, and has been used here before
by
Alarmists ad nauseum.


CO2 is almost as low as it ever has been to the best of our
knowledge.... so I see no cause for
alarm at all.


I would like to make another point if I may,,, that in the
original post by our dear friend Roger Coppock, the statement that
the
level of CO2 in the atmosphere now reaching the level that it was
800,000 years ago is very badly in error, if it is not an outright
lie.


Catoni

On May 12, 11:54*pm, Last Post wrote:
On May 12, 4:51*pm, Roger Coppock wrote: CO2 Level at Least 800,000-Year High!

According to the Earth System Research Laboratory of the
US National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration, the May
monthly mean CO2 concentration measured at Mauna Loa was
389.47 ppmv. *This is a new maximum for this data set,
the longest term and most frequently referenced CO2 data.

Also, according to the IPCC WG1 AR4 list of robust findings:

* *"Current atmospheric concentrations of CO2 and CH4,
* * and their associated positive radiative forcing,
* * far exceed those determined from ice core
* * measurements spanning the last 650,000 years."

•• More AGW hogwash
* * NOAA takes measurements on top of an active volcano

* * Talk about loading the dice.
* * Then they talk about "positive radiative forcing"
* * which is nothing more than a smokescreen for
* * junk science.

- -
In real science the burden of proof is always on
the proposer, never on the sceptics. So far
neither IPCC nor has anyone else provide one
iota of valid data for global warming nor have
they provided data that climate change is being
effected by commerce and industry, and not by
natural phenomena.

Yes, atmosphereic CO2 is indeed monitored from the largest active
volcanoe in the world. Not what I would think to be the brightest
idea. What they say they try to do, is to make adjustments for out-
gassing of CO2 from the volcanoe. How well they are able to do that,
how they do it, and how precise their adjusments are, I'm not sure.
There should certainly be questions asked and answered.

In my opinion, there are far better places in the world to measure
atmospheric CO2 then the top of an active volcanoe which belches that
very gas from the crater and several vents and cones and the
occasional lava flow.

What bright mind came up with that location ? And who were the
bright minds that agreed to it?

On Tue, 12 May 2009 18:11:02 -0700 (PDT), Catoni wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ph...on_Dioxide.png

According to this chart, we are damn close to of the lowest
atmospheric CO2 levels in the last 500 million years.

We are about 30% higher then about 100 - 150 years ago, but it
has been almost 600 % higher then now about 110 million years ago.
More then 2000 ppmv, compared to about 385 today.

What was the climate like at 2000 ppm ?

And even much higher then that 500 million years ago.

CO2 is actually toxic in high concentrations. I don't know about 2000 ppm
but it sounds dodgy to me. Higher than that could be scary. Let's not shoot
for it, ay?

Lee

On May 13, 1:59*pm, Catoni wrote:
Fran- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

*Fran... you might want to check your math... *Unless my math skills
have fallen off very sharply as I age, (inevitable, over time I
suppose), then 2000
is 526.3... % of 380 . *Lets say 526 %to make it simple shall we? We
really don't need use decimal points in this case.



You said: "but it has been almost 600 % higher then ...

To make this clear, if my wage is $100 per week and my friend's wage
is $200 per week then my friend's wage is 200% *OF* my wage (ie my
wage * 2) but only 100% HIGHER than my wage .... (the difference
between our two wages expressed as a proportion of my wage)


Thus


the difference between the higher figure and the lower figure
(2000-388) is 1612 ppmv. 1612ppmv expressed as a proportion of 388ppmv
is 415.46391% (truncation to six places) That is also the amount it
is higher than current.

*Or .. if we wish to say that atmospheric CO2 is now 385ppmv, then...
it would come to about 519.5%

* *To be honest, my original rough guess of 600% was indeed wrong as
well. Both of us need a math refresher course I guess. *

* Double checking.... It looks to me as if I am correct now. *Can you
see
where I might be mistaken Fran?


see above


* I can't remember what it is you teach Fran,,,but it's not math I
take it..


It's not, but I'm right anyway.

* *My point is that in the last 500 million years... CO2 has been
much
much higher then now...

If my point was that the Sumerians invented cuneiform script, how
would this enlighten anyone on the significance of current and future
CO2 levels to current and future humans?

* *During the height of the reign of the dinosaurs, as much as 500%
and more, then it is now.


Yes, and then they died.


* If you take the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere for that time
period, then right now, we are pretty well close to the bottom of the
chart.. *

You keep saying this but why is this relevant now?

Relatively very little CO2 in the atmosphere... *I suppose
that's why they call it a "trace"gas... because there is only a trace
of it... Thank goodness too, or we would have no photosynthesis..


You should put this to someone who thinks it feasible and desirable to
remove all trace of Co2 in the atmosphere. I don't know how we could
do that and don't see any reason for trying.

*No
or very little life on Earth... *it's vital... And some people are
now
labelling it pollution...


False dichotomy. The fact that it is vital to life on Earth doesn't
mean it can't also be a pollutant. Years ago a small (trace amount) of
copper and zinc used to leach into urban water supplies from pipes.
Copper and zinc are micronutrients. In extreme cases you can die from
lack of zinc and copper so it's essential to life and certainly to
health, so this 'pollution' was a good thing. OTOH if a lot more had
got into the water lots of people would have become quite ill and some
would have died. So copper and zinc are essential to life and also
pollutants.

Likewise going out into the sun for 20 minutes each day and exposing
your arms, legs and face is a good way of avoiding rickets because
your body builds vitamin D from fats. Over exposure can cause melanoma
however.

What a crazy world we live in where we have to see components of our
environment much as goldilocks saw hers.


* *CO2 is almost as low as it ever has been to the best of our
knowledge.... * so I see no cause for
alarm at all.


Non sequitur. You're assuming ceteris paribus -- that all else is
equal, but all else is not. There are now 6.5 billion people on the
planet rather than zero. We depend on the ecosystem not changing very
much because even a small change in the avalable arable or industrial
land or its distribution or its yields or the availability of
residential land would cause massive dislocation and misery. The
continents weren't then where they are now and sea levels were far
higher then than now and as we know each of these periods of high CO2
marked one of the five major extinction events recorded in the record.
The End Permian event wiped out pretty much all higher order life on
the planet. The fact is though that each of the past events was marked
by slower rises in CO2 concentration than today's (although the PETM
was fairly close).

The other problem with your claim is that we are not now at the
ceiling. Thwere is simply no basis for thinking that absent human
intervention, CO2 concentrations will stabilise. We are entitled to
think that if your side get their way the planet will have
concentratuions of 1000-1200 ppmv by the end of the 21st century which
would be a much faster rise than in the PETM. How do you suppose that
will affect biodiversity? What would such concentrations do to the pH
of the sea? The stability of the permafrost and its trapped CH4? The
health of marine phytoplankton which are themselves a major CO2 sink?
How will the humans of 2200 onwards cope with that, do you suppose?

This is one of the problems with your crowd. You are thinking about
your creature comforts NOW but are indifferent to the mess you will
leave those who follow us and so speak as if our obligation is at most
to the next 5-10 years. That's simply reckless.

* *I would like to make another point if I may,,, *that in the
original post by our dear friend Roger Coppock, the statement that
the
level of CO2 in the atmosphere now reaching the level that it was
800,000 years ago is very badly in error, if it is not an outright
lie.



You can make that point, but until you come up with some evidence
nobody serious will believe you.

Fran