Mike Tullett wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:24:37 +0000, Howard Neil wrote in


BlueLightning wrote:

It does concern me how the English language is being butchered
This will probably sound pedantic, but here goes
"i was sat outside"
should be
"i was sitting outside"
Just a general comment that lots of people seem to use "sat" instead of
"sitting" these days

That is not pedantic enough. Jack did not say "i was sat outside"; he
said "I just sat
outside". Please note, in addition, that he correctly used a capital "I".


Indeed - and it just goes to show the importance of *quoting properly* from
the post being referred to in the reply.


I was taught at school, that when using the capital letter "I" by
itself. It should ALWAYS be used as a capital

--
Joe
Wolverhampton

In article ,
Joe writes:
According to my Longman's dictionary. To say "i was sat outside" is
correct, as "sat" is the past participle of sit, and is a verb.

"Sat" is indeed the past participle, but it isn't used in the so-called
"past imperfect" tense. Thus you could say "I sat" (perfect tense) or "I
was sitting" (past imperfect tense), but not "I was sat". Perhaps
another example will make it clearer. You would say "I ate" or "I was
eating", but surely not "I was ate"!

While "sitting" is a noun where is it use to describe a period when
you are sitting in a chair"

As you say, it is used to describe an action going on over a period,
which is what the past imperfect tense does. My OED also calls "sitting"
a noun, which surprised me. It's the present particle of the verb "to
sit", which I would have thought made it a verb. As well, as "I was
sitting", it's also used in the present tense, where "I am sitting" is
an alternative to "I sit".

Perhaps we ought to raise the question in uk.culture.language.english
--
John Hall "Never play cards with a man called Doc.
Never eat at a place called Mom's.
Never sleep with a woman whose troubles
are worse than your own." Nelson Algren

John Hall wrote in message ...
:"Sat" is indeed the past participle, but it isn't used in the so-called
:"past imperfect" tense. Thus you could say "I sat" (perfect tense) or "I
:was sitting" (past imperfect tense), but not "I was sat".

I agree that it is not correct standard English but you will often hear it
in the north of England, for instance, and perhaps elsewhere. I believe
Jack is from East Anglia.

: ... My OED also calls "sitting"
:a noun, which surprised me. It's the present particle of the verb "to
:sit", which I would have thought made it a verb.

"Sitting" is the present participle of "sit" - it is therefore a verb form.
There is also a noun "sitting" as in Joe's example: "in one sitting".

Colin Youngs
Brussels

Quoting from message
posted on 31 Jan 2005 by John Hall
I would like to add:



My OED also calls "sitting"
a noun, which surprised me. It's the present particle of the verb "to
sit", which I would have thought made it a verb.

When I was at school the term used was "gerund", it's now "verb-noun" - but
still subject to some misuse, generally people will say "Do you mind me
sitting here?" whereas it should be "Do you mind my sitting here?"
(as would be with any other noun)

I think examples are more obvious in some other languages.

Then there's the "at one sitting" as mentioned by Colin which I think is
really this gerund/verb-noun.

However rules of grammar are constantly changing, or being dropped; some
regard this as progressive, others regard it as detrimental.

--
....ElaineJ... Briallen Gifts/Cards catalogue at http://www.briallen.co.uk
....Kinetic... Corn Dollies, Cards, Coasters, Mousemats, Kids' Tshirts
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Elaine Jones wrote in message ...

:Quoting from message
: posted on 31 Jan 2005 by John Hall
: My OED also calls "sitting"
: a noun, which surprised me. It's the present particle of the verb "to
: sit", which I would have thought made it a verb.

:When I was at school the term used was "gerund", it's now "verb-noun" - but
:still subject to some misuse, generally people will say "Do you mind me
:sitting here?" whereas it should be "Do you mind my sitting here?"
as would be with any other noun)

I am not sure that you always use the possessive with the gerund. You
would surely say, e.g., "Do you mind me smoking ?". "Do you mind my
smoking ?" would mean something else.

:Then there's the "at one sitting" as mentioned by Colin which I think is
:really this gerund/verb-noun.

No. "Sitting" is a simple noun in this case - although obviously derived
from the verb originally. Compare it with "meeting" or "(human) being".

The gerund or verbal noun is a verb form used with the function of a noun,
e.g. "Sitting too long makes you lazy", "Meeting you was a pleasure", etc.

You cannot use "a" or "the" with a gerund as you can with a simple noun
("The next sitting of the House of Commons"; "Let's hold a meeting"; "I am a
human being", etc).

Colin Youngs
Brussels

saw a honey bee out yesterday!

MY
DREAMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:-(

D.

saw a honey bee out yesterday!

MY DREAMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:-(

D.

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:08:01 +0100, Colin Youngs wrote in


:When I was at school the term used was "gerund", it's now "verb-noun" - but
:still subject to some misuse, generally people will say "Do you mind me
:sitting here?" whereas it should be "Do you mind my sitting here?"
as would be with any other noun)

I am not sure that you always use the possessive with the gerund. You
would surely say, e.g., "Do you mind me smoking ?". "Do you mind my
smoking ?" would mean something else.

My own recollection favoured the use of the possessive for such an example
of the verbal noun. However, there seems to be quite a debate on this one.
I've just found this page outlining the views.

http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/028.html

Sorry - getting way OT now:-)

--
Mike 55.13°N 6.69°W Coleraine posted to uk.sci.weather 31/01/2005 23:27:38 UTC

Quoting from message
posted on 31 Jan 2005 by Colin Youngs
I would like to add:

Elaine Jones wrote in message ...

:Quoting from message
: posted on 31 Jan 2005 by John Hall
: My OED also calls "sitting"
: a noun, which surprised me. It's the present particle of the verb "to
: sit", which I would have thought made it a verb.

:When I was at school the term used was "gerund", it's now "verb-noun" - but
:still subject to some misuse, generally people will say "Do you mind me
:sitting here?" whereas it should be "Do you mind my sitting here?"
as would be with any other noun)

I am not sure that you always use the possessive with the gerund. You
would surely say, e.g., "Do you mind me smoking ?". "Do you mind my
smoking ?" would mean something else.

Actually I'd say "Do you mind if I smoke?" (Vision of Morticia Adams with
smoke seeping out)

I can't lay my hands on Usage and Abusage so resorted to Google:

In traditional grammar, any pronoun or noun that precedes a gerund should be
in the possessive case: I disapprove of his smoking; I resented Sarah's
taking my place. In practice, though, in present-day English most people use
the object form of pronouns: I disapprove of him smoking and do not inflect
nouns: I resented Sarah taking my place.This usage (which is sometimes termed
a fused participle) is perfectly acceptable in standard English, and indeed
it is probably preferable to using possessive forms, which can sound stilted
and cumbersome. © From the Hutchinson Encyclopaedia.

which supports both of us; I would use the "traditional grammar" when
writing a formal report etc.

:Then there's the "at one sitting" as mentioned by Colin which I think is
:really this gerund/verb-noun.

No. "Sitting" is a simple noun in this case - although obviously derived
from the verb originally. Compare it with "meeting" or "(human) being".

Yes - I'd forgotten that if a plural can be formed it's a simple noun.

--
....ElaineJ... Briallen Gifts/Cards catalogue at http://www.briallen.co.uk
....Kinetic... Corn Dollies, Cards, Coasters, Mousemats, Kids' Tshirts
...StrongArm.. Jones' Pages at http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/ejones
....RISC PC... Corwen, North Wales; Steam Traction;CMMGB&Yukon Volunteers.

John Hall wrote:
In article ,
Joe writes:

According to my Longman's dictionary. To say "i was sat outside" is
correct, as "sat" is the past participle of sit, and is a verb.


"Sat" is indeed the past participle, but it isn't used in the so-called
"past imperfect" tense. Thus you could say "I sat" (perfect tense) or "I
was sitting" (past imperfect tense), but not "I was sat". Perhaps
another example will make it clearer. You would say "I ate" or "I was
eating", but surely not "I was ate"!

Yes, I can see your point now John. I should of ruminated on it more,
rather than a knee jerk reaction.

And yes many moons ago, I was ate, once ;-)


--
Joe
Wolverhampton