On Nov 21, 3:37 pm, Alastair wrote:
Oh he's a geologist is he?

That means what, exactly?

He knows what he is talking about when it comes to Earth Science ie
the subjects listed herehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_science#Partial_list_of_the_major_...

How often do they change the text books in that science?

And just because a man is qualified to list the geological periods as
they are and/or were in both senses of that term and put them into
their correct order -as it might be considered at the moment; it
doesn't follow that he was talking sense about volcanoes or magma.

He assumes (not having been around at the time) that volcanoes got
their fuel from the organisms that died and went to hell on a plate.

2 things struck me as a difficulty in that concept.

1. They'd have to stay squishy if they were to keep their carbon
content intact but not squishy enough to be rolled out at the top when
a plate descended.

2, The amount of Carbon Dioxide produced in volcanoes is more like the
quantities produced in some sort of chemical reaction between rocks.

There just isn't enough carbon in ocean detritus to supply all the
volcanoes all the time. One such seems to have been bubbling away non
stop since forever.

Maybe I am foolish in misinterpreting what he was telling us and am
fully deserving of the ad hominem attacks I am attracting by stating
the remarkably obvious but feck it.

Who can't see what I can see? Am I that astute as to have left the lot
of you stalled at the ********?

Tie a rope round them and I'll give you all a tug when I pass you next.

On 21 Nov, 19:34, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Nov 21, 3:37 pm, Alastair wrote:

Oh he's a geologist is he?

That means what, exactly?

He knows what he is talking about when it comes to Earth Science ie
the subjects listed herehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_science#Partial_list_of_the_major_...

How often do they change the text books in that science?

And just because a man is qualified to list the geological periods as
they are and/or were in both senses of that term and put them into
their correct order -as it might be considered at the moment; it
doesn't follow that he was talking sense about volcanoes or magma.

He assumes (not having been around at the time) that volcanoes got
their fuel from the organisms that died and went to hell on a plate.

2 things struck me as a difficulty in that concept.

1. They'd have to stay squishy if they were to keep their carbon
content intact but not squishy enough to be rolled out at the top when
a plate descended.

2, The amount of Carbon Dioxide produced in volcanoes is more like the
quantities produced in some sort of chemical reaction between rocks.

There just isn't enough carbon in ocean detritus to supply all the
volcanoes all the time. One such seems to have been bubbling away non
stop since forever.

Maybe I am foolish in misinterpreting what he was telling us and am
fully deserving of the ad hominem attacks I am attracting by stating
the remarkably obvious but feck it.

Who can't see what I can see? Am I that astute as to have left the lot
of you stalled at the ********?

Tie a rope round them and I'll give you all a tug when I pass you next.


The carbon that gets subducted is the Great Barrier Reef and the White
Cliffs of Dover. The latter actually stretches from Beer, on the
Dorset/Devon border to Malta and up into the Dolomites. There is
plenty of limestone that has not been buried yet. Not all volcanoes
pump out CO2, but since all the limestone gets formed on the sea bed,
it is in the right place to get subducted.

But I think you have probably spotted the flaw in the argument :-(.
Iain Stewart claimed that the volcanos were maintaining a balance, but
obviously it is a bit of hit or miss whether they emit CO2 or not. If
they were that good then Snowball Earth would never have happened.

What I have worked out is that the level of CO2 set the minimum
temperature and if it drops too low then there is an ice age. But the
maximum temperature is regulated by water vapour, the other greenhouse
gas. Provided there is enough CO2 for water to evaporate, i.e. not a
Snowball Earth, then water vapour will warm the planet and cause more
evaporation. This warming will continue until enough clouds have
formed to shut out the sun and prevent further warming. So with
enough CO2 the planet sits at the steady temperature that produces
enough clouds.

But that temperature is a lot warmer than today's. When man's CO2
melts the remaining ice, then the solar energy it was reflecting will
cause temperatures to rise until there are enough new clouds "to
steady the ship." How high will temperatures have to rise for more
clouds to form?

Cheers, Alastair.

On Nov 21, 8:24 pm, Alastair wrote:
On 21 Nov, 19:34, Weatherlawyer wrote:



On Nov 21, 3:37 pm, Alastair wrote:

Oh he's a geologist is he?

That means what, exactly?

He knows what he is talking about when it comes to Earth Science ie
the subjects listed herehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_science#Partial_list_of_the_major_...

How often do they change the text books in that science?

And just because a man is qualified to list the geological periods as
they are and/or were in both senses of that term and put them into
their correct order -as it might be considered at the moment; it
doesn't follow that he was talking sense about volcanoes or magma.

He assumes (not having been around at the time) that volcanoes got
their fuel from the organisms that died and went to hell on a plate.

2 things struck me as a difficulty in that concept.

1. They'd have to stay squishy if they were to keep their carbon
content intact but not squishy enough to be rolled out at the top when
a plate descended.

2, The amount of Carbon Dioxide produced in volcanoes is more like the
quantities produced in some sort of chemical reaction between rocks.

There just isn't enough carbon in ocean detritus to supply all the
volcanoes all the time. One such seems to have been bubbling away non
stop since forever.

Maybe I am foolish in misinterpreting what he was telling us and am
fully deserving of the ad hominem attacks I am attracting by stating
the remarkably obvious but feck it.

Who can't see what I can see? Am I that astute as to have left the lot
of you stalled at the ********?

Tie a rope round them and I'll give you all a tug when I pass you next.

The carbon that gets subducted is the Great Barrier Reef and the White
Cliffs of Dover. The latter actually stretches from Beer, on the
Dorset/Devon border to Malta and up into the Dolomites. There is
plenty of limestone that has not been buried yet. Not all volcanoes
pump out CO2, but since all the limestone gets formed on the sea bed,
it is in the right place to get subducted.

But I think you have probably spotted the flaw in the argument :-(.
Iain Stewart claimed that the volcanos were maintaining a balance, but
obviously it is a bit of hit or miss whether they emit CO2 or not. If
they were that good then Snowball Earth would never have happened.

What I have worked out is that the level of CO2 set the minimum
temperature and if it drops too low then there is an ice age. But the
maximum temperature is regulated by water vapour, the other greenhouse
gas. Provided there is enough CO2 for water to evaporate, i.e. not a
Snowball Earth, then water vapour will warm the planet and cause more
evaporation. This warming will continue until enough clouds have
formed to shut out the sun and prevent further warming. So with
enough CO2 the planet sits at the steady temperature that produces
enough clouds.

But that temperature is a lot warmer than today's. When man's CO2
melts the remaining ice, then the solar energy it was reflecting will
cause temperatures to rise until there are enough new clouds "to
steady the ship." How high will temperatures have to rise for more
clouds to form?

I don't know why you had to go to all that trouble working it out.
Didn't the scientist presenting the programme explain it all?

Yes Calcium carbonate contained in shellfish exoskeletons will go into
an abyss quite easily but then what provided all the sulphur? Besides,
the narrator didn't make it plain that he was talking about
lime"stone" subduction.

I suppose that that is because he didn't want to get dragged into a
chicken and egg argument about where the free calcium came from to
supply the carbonate in the first place.

Then of course he being a geologist would also have to state that the
sea-bed proper is SiMa not SiAhh.. errrmmmm SiCahh hmm.. errmm... help
me ... no ermm... let me ... ermmm...

Oh well, that bit was about evilocean and we all have more sense on
here, don't we. The BBC was good today wasn't it?

A bit?

in 235444 20071121 094632 Richard Dixon wrote:
On 20 Nov, 20:07, Alastair wrote:

Dr Iain Stewart is a geologist not a reporter. But if you are not
willing to listen to what a geologist has to say about the climate of
the past then the program is not for you. Why don't you write to
Radio 4's Feedback program if all you want to do is whinge about the
BBC?

I thought it was a very enoyable, informative programme.

.. which was ruined by constant, frantic drumming. Why do they do this?

On 2007-11-22, Bob Martin wrote:
in 235444 20071121 094632 Richard Dixon wrote:
On 20 Nov, 20:07, Alastair wrote:

Dr Iain Stewart is a geologist not a reporter. But if you are not
willing to listen to what a geologist has to say about the climate of
the past then the program is not for you. Why don't you write to
Radio 4's Feedback program if all you want to do is whinge about the
BBC?

I thought it was a very enoyable, informative programme.

. which was ruined by constant, frantic drumming. Why do they do this?

Beats me.



























Ok, that was bad. I'll get my coat.

Jim
--
http://www.ursaMinorBeta.co.uk
SCREGGAN (n. banking)
The crossed-out bit caused by people putting the wrong year on their cheques
all through January.

On Nov 21, 11:32 pm, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Nov 21, 8:24 pm, Alastair wrote:

The carbon that gets subducted is the Great Barrier Reef and the White
Cliffs of Dover. The latter actually stretches from Beer, on the
Dorset/Devon border to Malta and up into the Dolomites. There is
plenty of limestone that has not been buried yet. Not all volcanoes
pump out CO2, but since all the limestone gets formed on the sea bed,
it is in the right place to get subducted.

Yes Calcium carbonate contained in shellfish exoskeletons will go into
an abyss quite easily but then what provided all the sulphur? Besides,
the narrator didn't make it plain that he was talking about
lime"stone" subduction.

It plays a part. Limestone locks up a heck of a lot of the Earths CO2.
Without it we would have a considerably higher atmospheric pressure
and a composition more like that of Venus.

There is also expected to have been a fair amount of carbon in the raw
material that the Earth was formed from based on analysis of meteorite
composition.

I suppose that that is because he didn't want to get dragged into a
chicken and egg argument about where the free calcium came from to
supply the carbonate in the first place.

Calcium is an abundant terrestrial element. See for example:
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/E/elterr.html

And calcium bicarbonate is relatively water soluble on a geological
timescale. Liquid water makes a big difference.

Regards,
Martin Brown

On Nov 22, 10:47 am, Martin Brown
wrote:
On Nov 21, 11:32 pm, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Nov 21, 8:24 pm, Alastair wrote:

The carbon that gets subducted is the Great Barrier Reef and the White
Cliffs of Dover. The latter actually stretches from Beer, on the
Dorset/Devon border to Malta and up into the Dolomites. There is
plenty of limestone that has not been buried yet. Not all volcanoes
pump out CO2, but since all the limestone gets formed on the sea bed,
it is in the right place to get subducted.

Yes Calcium carbonate contained in shellfish exoskeletons will go into
an abyss quite easily but then what provided all the sulphur? Besides,
the narrator didn't make it plain that he was talking about
lime"stone" subduction.

It plays a part. Limestone locks up a heck of a lot of the Earths CO2.
Without it we would have a considerably higher atmospheric pressure
and a composition more like that of Venus.

There is also expected to have been a fair amount of carbon in the raw
material that the Earth was formed from based on analysis of meteorite
composition.

Lots of sulphur too. I wonder what strange creatures arrived from
outer space to supply the fossil beds of their particular biological
trait.

I suppose that that is because he didn't want to get dragged into a
chicken and egg argument about where the free calcium came from to
supply the carbonate in the first place.

Calcium is an abundant terrestrial element. See for example:http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/E/elterr.html

And calcium bicarbonate is relatively water soluble on a geological
time-scale. Liquid water makes a big difference.

It isn't as big a part or as geographically relevant as Aluminium and
Magnesium which was the thrust of the points the programme was
ignoring in the head-first rush over basic factual reportage. Perhaps
a repeat will allow you to see what my post was pointing out.

No doubt he will do better as he explains weather systems that CAN be
researched next week.

So where did the prehistoric life forms get the calcium from and why?
And how come it wasn't locked?

On 22 Nov, 13:12, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Nov 22, 10:47 am, Martin Brown
wrote:



On Nov 21, 11:32 pm, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Nov 21, 8:24 pm, Alastair wrote:

The carbon that gets subducted is the Great Barrier Reef and the White
Cliffs of Dover. The latter actually stretches from Beer, on the
Dorset/Devon border to Malta and up into the Dolomites. There is
plenty of limestone that has not been buried yet. Not all volcanoes
pump out CO2, but since all the limestone gets formed on the sea bed,
it is in the right place to get subducted.

Yes Calcium carbonate contained in shellfish exoskeletons will go into
an abyss quite easily but then what provided all the sulphur? Besides,
the narrator didn't make it plain that he was talking about
lime"stone" subduction.

It plays a part. Limestone locks up a heck of a lot of the Earths CO2.
Without it we would have a considerably higher atmospheric pressure
and a composition more like that of Venus.

There is also expected to have been a fair amount of carbon in the raw
material that the Earth was formed from based on analysis of meteorite
composition.

Lots of sulphur too. I wonder what strange creatures arrived from
outer space to supply the fossil beds of their particular biological
trait.

I suppose that that is because he didn't want to get dragged into a
chicken and egg argument about where the free calcium came from to
supply the carbonate in the first place.

Calcium is an abundant terrestrial element. See for example:http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/E/elterr.html

And calcium bicarbonate is relatively water soluble on a geological
time-scale. Liquid water makes a big difference.

It isn't as big a part or as geographically relevant as Aluminium and
Magnesium which was the thrust of the points the programme was
ignoring in the head-first rush over basic factual reportage. Perhaps
a repeat will allow you to see what my post was pointing out.

No doubt he will do better as he explains weather systems that CAN be
researched next week.

So where did the prehistoric life forms get the calcium from and why?
And how come it wasn't locked?

Calcium is in granite and other igneous rocks. The carbon dioxide in
the air dissolves in rain and forms carbonic acid. This attacks the
granite and produces calcium bicarbonate which is soluble. It is
carried by the rivers into the sea where the calcium ions are formed
into calcium carbonate as shells of marine animals or are just
precipitated if the water is warm enough.

I am not sure about sulphur but googling for "sulfur cycle" may answer
your question.

Cheers, Alastair.

On Nov 22, 1:38 pm, Alastair wrote:
On 22 Nov, 13:12, Weatherlawyer wrote:



On Nov 22, 10:47 am, Martin Brown
wrote:

On Nov 21, 11:32 pm, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Nov 21, 8:24 pm, Alastair wrote:

The carbon that gets subducted is the Great Barrier Reef and the White
Cliffs of Dover. The latter actually stretches from Beer, on the
Dorset/Devon border to Malta and up into the Dolomites. There is
plenty of limestone that has not been buried yet. Not all volcanoes
pump out CO2, but since all the limestone gets formed on the sea bed,
it is in the right place to get subducted.

Yes Calcium carbonate contained in shellfish exoskeletons will go into
an abyss quite easily but then what provided all the sulphur? Besides,
the narrator didn't make it plain that he was talking about
lime"stone" subduction.

It plays a part. Limestone locks up a heck of a lot of the Earths CO2.
Without it we would have a considerably higher atmospheric pressure
and a composition more like that of Venus.

There is also expected to have been a fair amount of carbon in the raw
material that the Earth was formed from based on analysis of meteorite
composition.

Lots of sulphur too. I wonder what strange creatures arrived from
outer space to supply the fossil beds of their particular biological
trait.

I suppose that that is because he didn't want to get dragged into a
chicken and egg argument about where the free calcium came from to
supply the carbonate in the first place.

Calcium is an abundant terrestrial element. See for example:http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/E/elterr.html

And calcium bicarbonate is relatively water soluble on a geological
time-scale. Liquid water makes a big difference.

It isn't as big a part or as geographically relevant as Aluminium and
Magnesium which was the thrust of the points the programme was
ignoring in the head-first rush over basic factual reportage. Perhaps
a repeat will allow you to see what my post was pointing out.

No doubt he will do better as he explains weather systems that CAN be
researched next week.

So where did the prehistoric life forms get the calcium from and why?
And how come it wasn't locked?

Calcium is in granite and other igneous rocks. The carbon dioxide in
the air dissolves in rain and forms carbonic acid. This attacks the
granite and produces calcium bicarbonate which is soluble. It is
carried by the rivers into the sea where the calcium ions are formed
into calcium carbonate as shells of marine animals or are just
precipitated if the water is warm enough.

I get the impression (zenning it in a most geological manner, I admit)
that the incidence of limestone in volcanoes is instrumental in
producing types of eruptions.

You'd think a geologist would have been a little more forthcoming on
the chemistry. But there again as a primer that will probably end up
on the schools programmes slot...

Oofque!

I am not sure about sulphur but Googling for "sulfur cycle" may answer
your question.

You are not supposed to be sure about the sulphur. It is not part of
the grand explanation.

Nevertheless the facts remain that vast deposits of this organic
chemical arrived carbon like and at similar strata levels and that
volcanoes are remarkably rich in it. IIRC without looking it up,
volcanoes produce glass and gas and are a rich source of suphur.

But back to the carbon cycle... The carbon dioxide was already in the
system before the volcanoes occurred?

Which just leaves the questions about how all life forms knew that
magnesium was a trace element and that calcium was going to be a lot
more useful.

Bloody clever them sponges. Maybe there is hope for some of the
relatively higher life forms on here.

On Nov 22, 7:50 am, Bob Martin wrote:

I thought it was a very enjoyable, informative programme.

Here is some more of that contemporary stuff. Very clever but based on
wrong presuppositions:
http://www.juliantrubin.com/encyclop...s/volcano.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_o...ns#Pel.C3.A9an

. which was ruined by constant, frantic drumming. Why do they do this?

A BBsegue to Bernard Chouet?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3183047.stm