"Alan White" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 16:53:17 -0000, "paulus" wrote:

...
Go outside on a clear dark night. Look up at the stars and ask your self
"will we really be missed?"

Even that's becoming more and more difficult.

The last time we saw a clear dark sky was at 14,500 feet close to the
Sikkim/Nepal border in the foothills of Kanchenjunga in 2001. Nothing
that I've seen in the UK in the last thirty-odd years compares to that
sort of sky. It's unbelievably beautiful - and humbling.
--

Indeed, and that is what modern man is missing out on, I'm sure the ancients had
more of a "sense of place" than we do now.

Will
--

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 18:23:48 -0000, "Will Hand"
wrote:

Indeed, and that is what modern man is missing out on, I'm sure the ancients had
more of a "sense of place" than we do now.

....and in that place we are nothing and, hence, won't be missed.

--
Alan White
Mozilla Firefox and Forte Agent.
Twenty-eight miles NW of Glasgow, overlooking Lochs Long and Goil in Argyll, Scotland.
Webcam and weather:- http://windycroft.gt-britain.co.uk/weather

"Alan White" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 18:23:48 -0000, "Will Hand"
wrote:

Indeed, and that is what modern man is missing out on, I'm sure the ancients
had
more of a "sense of place" than we do now.

...and in that place we are nothing and, hence, won't be missed.


There is not an "out there" and "us" there is only ONE, it is not about missing,
we are part of all creation and if we disappear so be it, we would have served
our purpose whatever that may be and what we will never know.

Will
--

Alan White wrote:

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 16:53:17 -0000, "paulus" wrote:

...
Go outside on a clear dark night. Look up at the stars and ask your self
"will we really be missed?"

Even that's becoming more and more difficult.

The last time we saw a clear dark sky was at 14,500 feet close to the
Sikkim/Nepal border in the foothills of Kanchenjunga in 2001. Nothing
that I've seen in the UK in the last thirty-odd years compares to that
sort of sky. It's unbelievably beautiful - and humbling.

When I was a kid walking home at night in the 50s, the only street lights
were gas and they didn't light much of the street let alone the sky. Any
clear night, I could see the Milky Way, which is something I haven't seen
for decades.

I think the last time I saw the night sky properly was 1964, when I used to
walk the couple of miles from a bus stop on the A6 to work at RAE
Thurleigh. On a really clear night, it came home to me that I was standing
on the outer skin of a rock floating through space, and there seemed
nothing between me and the stars.

Nowadays, someone says there'll be an Aurora visible over southern England
and I'll say "so what; I'll never see it - the sky's always orange anyway."

--
Graham P Davis, Bracknell, Berks., UK. E-mail: newsman, not newsboy.
"What use is happiness? It can't buy you money." [Chic Murray, 1919-85]

"Will Hand" wrote in message
...

"paulus" wrote in message
...


Modern man has never experienced a catastrophe of global proportions. One
will come along soon enough and it won't be anything to do with the level
of
CO2 in the atmosphere.


Any idea what?

Disease and pestillence are front runners, brought about by overpopulation
that will eventually cause a vital component of our ecosphere to collapse.
Man has
flourished since the end of the last ice age. Warmer climate is good for us.
I see no reason that we would not return to entirely natural ce age
conditions at
some time in the future.


Besides if CO2 was so toxic we'd do something about the destruction of
the
rain forests. I wonder what proportion of the increase in atmospheric CO2
in
the last 100 years can be attributed to deforestation activity??


I heard a figure the other day of circa 25%. Apparently deforestation is a
major
contributor. To me it is not the CO2 increase that is so sad, it is the
removal
of animal's homes.

I hadn't seen a figure but I'm not surprised by 25%. It saddens me to think
of the habitats that have been and are continuing to be destroyed. I read
that until the middle ages much of the British Isles was covered in dense
forests. Imagine how beautiful the now barren landscape would have looked
back then.


It is so very easy to get carried away with our cosey cosseted lifestyle,
we
are completely isolated from the reality of our irrelevance in the grand
scheme of things.

I'm sure I said this before and I'm sure it is very unpalatable to most
people, but, whether it is self inflicted or apparently undeserved, it
will
take a catastrophe to rid the world of this human infestation.


I don't see us as an infestation, I see us as part of this planet's
evolution.

Indeed we are, but nothing more than just a phase that the earth is going
through :-)
We don't have the resilliance to withstand too much discomfort when the
going gets tough. At leat not at the population level we have now.


Go outside on a clear dark night. Look up at the stars and ask your self
"will we really be missed?"


Missed by whom or what?

Exactly!!!


We are a part of the Universe and I am sure we have a valued place in the
great
scheme of things. I look up at the stars and I feel a sense of belonging
as well
as awe.

I wish that I believed that there was a big diary being kept somewhere and
that
a record of our time here was recorded. Then I could say that we added value
to the grand plan - that some other being could learn from us. Alas, I think
that
when we are gone we are gone! We don't even get on the score sheet.

Paulus

When I was a kid walking home at night in the 50s, the only street lights
were gas and they didn't light much of the street let alone the sky. Any
clear night, I could see the Milky Way, which is something I haven't seen
for decades.

Drop in Graham, I can see it now. Though at -3.8 I won't be hanging around
too long.

--
David Mitchell, 70m amsl, Langtoft, East Riding of Yorkshire.

"paulus" wrote in message
...

"Will Hand" wrote in message
...


Nobody likes to be told what to do - full stop, which is why CO2
emissions will
continue to rise unless and until something mega catastrophic is on the
immediate horizon. That's just the way it is :-(

Will
--

Modern man has never experienced a catastrophe of global proportions. One
will come along soon enough and it won't be anything to do with the level
of CO2 in the atmosphere.

Besides if CO2 was so toxic we'd do something about the destruction of the
rain forests. I wonder what proportion of the increase in atmospheric CO2
in the last 100 years can be attributed to deforestation activity??



Good point - one heck of a lot, and not enough is made of this aspect of
it.:-(

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 20:14:37 -0000, "David Mitchell"
wrote:

When I was a kid walking home at night in the 50s, the only street lights
were gas and they didn't light much of the street let alone the sky. Any
clear night, I could see the Milky Way, which is something I haven't seen
for decades.

Drop in Graham, I can see it now. Though at -3.8 I won't be hanging around
too long.

I've seen it because when out of town on a dark clear night, I
sometimes stop the car (safely!) in the middle of nowhereand get out
just to have a look. It's awe inspiring. I once did that on a dark
section of the A34 just to show my (then) teenage daughter what the
milky way looked like - something she'd never seen before. She moaned
and groaned and really did not want to get out of the car into the
cold night air!

Well I talked her into it but she only grudgingy conceded that it was
an amazing sight. However, I am satisfied in the knowledge that at
least I gave her the opportunity to experience something awesome that
I don't believe 95% of people under the age of forty have ever seen.
But sadly, I suspect that most people, not even University Grads (as
she now is) don't really care.

--
Dave

On Dec 16, 4:53 pm, "paulus" wrote:
"Will Hand" wrote in message

...

Nobody likes to be told what to do - full stop, which is why CO2 emissions
will
continue to rise unless and until something mega catastrophic is on the
immediate horizon. That's just the way it is :-(

Yes the sooner a few Cat 5 hurricanes annihilate all the expensive
coastal real estate on the Gulf coast and Florida the better for the
ROW. It is going to take either that or a collapse of US agriculture
to get their attention. The current US adminstration will still be
denying AGW even when the sea is lapping at the White House steps.

Modern man has never experienced a catastrophe of global proportions. One
will come along soon enough and it won't be anything to do with the level of
CO2 in the atmosphere.

There have been regional volcanic ones with pretty devastating
consequences. For instance Laki 1783-5, Tamborra 1816 and more
recently Krakatoa 1884 and a really big one in AD536
http://volcano.und.edu/vwdocs/Gases/laki.html
http://volcano.und.edu/vwdocs/Gases/eruptions.html
The AD 536 event is not especially well understood and could have been
either volcanic or a cometary impact. What is clear it that it
affected global weather for a few years afterwards.
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf096/sf096g12.htm

Besides if CO2 was so toxic we'd do something about the destruction of the
rain forests. I wonder what proportion of the increase in atmospheric CO2 in
the last 100 years can be attributed to deforestation activity??

CO2 isn't particularly toxic. It is part of every plant and animals
metabolism. The problem is that being a triatomic molecule it is
really good at absorbing infrared radiation and making the planet
warmer. Methane, CH4 is even better at it but is rapidly oxidised in
the Earths atmosphere to CO2.

It is so very easy to get carried away with our cosey cosseted lifestyle, we
are completely isolated from the reality of our irrelevance in the grand
scheme of things.

Doubtless the Earth will adjust to our adding ever more CO2 by warming
and sea levels will rise. That much is now inevitable, but we can
still buy some time by improving energy efficiency. Present efforts in
the West are far inferior to what was done during the 1970's OPEC
induced oil crisis.

I'm sure I said this before and I'm sure it is very unpalatable to most
people, but, whether it is self inflicted or apparently undeserved, it will
take a catastrophe to rid the world of this human infestation.

Even a global catastrophe will probably not entirely wipe us out
entirely (with the possible exclusion of total thermonuclear war). In
the latter case it will be insecta's turn to evolve and populate the
planet. Their copper based blood chemistry is much more radiation
tolerant than mammals and birds.

Go outside on a clear dark night. Look up at the stars and ask your self
"will we really be missed?"

No one has noticed us yet. We still have yet to last for as long as
the dinosaurs.

Regards,
Martin Brown

Squelching through the mud, David Mitchell at , blathered on
thus, and it became the following missive...

When I was a kid walking home at night in the 50s, the only street lights
were gas and they didn't light much of the street let alone the sky. Any
clear night, I could see the Milky Way, which is something I haven't seen
for decades.

Drop in Graham, I can see it now. Though at -3.8 I won't be hanging around
too long.



I spent a fair bit of last night (well from about 8 til midnight) down with the
lads at the local astronomical observatory at Brough. As we always do, we saw
some pretty amazing things. This last twelve months we managed to observe a
total of 9 comets, most of the planets - haven't caught Pluto yet - noctilucent
clouds and many many galaxies, clusters and the odd asteroid.

Often I'll just go out onto the paving in front of it, look up and think "All
those people inside watching TV, do they know what they're missing?
--
Rob C. Overfield
Hull