http://www.thelocal.se/47154/20130405/#.UWAi7ZNJO30

Lets have a nice Baltic Exchange and no gouging


Interesting that sea ice records in the Baltic only started in the sixties
which makes me think how accurate any arctic sea ice records are before satellites.

Testimonials:


Bjorn Tattersborg

"I've never seen anything like it!"

On Sat, 6 Apr 2013 08:15:58 -0700 (PDT), Lawrence13
wrote:
http://www.thelocal.se/47154/20130405/#.UWAi7ZNJO30
Lets have a nice Baltic Exchange and no gouging

Interesting that sea ice records in the Baltic only started in the
sixties
which makes me think how accurate any arctic sea ice records are
before satellites.
How would the fact that Baltic ice records only starting in the
sixties have the remotest bearing on the accuracy of records from the
Arctic? Sorry, I'm not following your logic here....

Testimonials:

Bjorn Tattersborg
"I've never seen anything like it!"

Another testimonial (taken from the article):

"It's kind of cool to see how the weather changes from year to year,"
Herlin added.

--
Freddie
Bayston Hill
Shropshire
102m AMSL
http://www.hosiene.co.uk/weather/
https://twitter.com/#!/BaystonHillWx for hourly reports

On Saturday, 6 April 2013 20:05:09 UTC+1, Freddie wrote:
On Sat, 6 Apr 2013 08:15:58 -0700 (PDT), Lawrence13

wrote:

http://www.thelocal.se/47154/20130405/#.UWAi7ZNJO30

Lets have a nice Baltic Exchange and no gouging



Interesting that sea ice records in the Baltic only started in the

sixties

which makes me think how accurate any arctic sea ice records are

before satellites.

How would the fact that Baltic ice records only starting in the

sixties have the remotest bearing on the accuracy of records from the

Arctic? Sorry, I'm not following your logic here....



Testimonials:



Bjorn Tattersborg

"I've never seen anything like it!"



Another testimonial (taken from the article):



"It's kind of cool to see how the weather changes from year to year,"

Herlin added.



--

Freddie

Bayston Hill

Shropshire

102m AMSL

http://www.hosiene.co.uk/weather/

https://twitter.com/#!/BaystonHillWx for hourly reports

I would have thought it was obvious. Sweden and Finland are not stupid are they and if the record keeping there was quite scant before the sixties regardless of the importance of ice in the Baltic. I would also have though that if anything keeping tabs in that area would be a cinch compared to the sheer vastness and remoteness of the Arctic pre the satellite era.

Basically the Baltic should be subject to more intense observations than the Arctic before the sixties. I hope I made that clear.

On Sat, 6 Apr 2013 12:51:34 -0700 (PDT), Lawrence13
wrote:
I would have thought it was obvious. Sweden and Finland are not
stupid are =
they and if the record keeping there was quite scant before the
sixties reg=
ardless of the importance of ice in the Baltic. I would also have
though th=
at if anything keeping tabs in that area would be a cinch compared
to the s=
heer vastness and remoteness of the Arctic pre the satellite era.

Basically the Baltic should be subject to more intense observations
than th=
e Arctic before the sixties. I hope I made that clear.
Ah ok fair enough. So you meant records of ice extent derived from
individual records, rather than the accuracy of the individual arctic
observations themselves. That wasn't especially clear to me.

--
Freddie
Bayston Hill
Shropshire
102m AMSL
http://www.hosiene.co.uk/weather/
https://twitter.com/#!/BaystonHillWx for hourly reports

In article ,
Lawrence13 writes:
http://www.thelocal.se/47154/20130405/#.UWAi7ZNJO30

Interesting article.

Lets have a nice Baltic Exchange and no gouging


Interesting that sea ice records in the Baltic only started in the sixties

I think that's a bit like the Met Office's pretence that UK temperature
records only began in 1910. The 1960s may be when official records of
Baltic sea ice began, but I think we have at least rough ideas of the
amount of ice going back hundreds of years. After all there have been a
lot of ships using the Baltic for a very long time.

I've just had a look in my copy of HH Lamb's "Climate, History and the
Modern World" (though it's now a little out of date, being published in
1982, it's a fascinating read for anyone with an interest in climate
history). On p220 I found: "... the two winters with least Baltic ice as
shown by the over four hundred years long record of ice closing the port
of Riga occurred in 1651-2 and 1652-3; the winter of 1658-9 produced the
opposite extreme - much as the great Baltic ice winters of 1962-3 and
1965-6 occurred only a few years before the ice-free winter of 1974-5."

which makes me think how accurate any arctic sea ice records are
before satellites.

Certainly far less accurate and for nowhere near as long as for the
Baltic, simply because far less shipping ventures there (with the
exception of a few areas such as the journey around the top of
Scandinavia to Archangel).
--
John Hall
"Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable
of giving pleasure to thousands and all you can do is scratch it."
Sir Thomas Beecham (1879-1961) to a lady cellist

On Saturday, 6 April 2013 20:42:23 UTC+1, John Hall wrote:
In article ,

Lawrence13 writes:

http://www.thelocal.se/47154/20130405/#.UWAi7ZNJO30



Interesting article.



Lets have a nice Baltic Exchange and no gouging





Interesting that sea ice records in the Baltic only started in the sixties



I think that's a bit like the Met Office's pretence that UK temperature

records only began in 1910. The 1960s may be when official records of

Baltic sea ice began, but I think we have at least rough ideas of the

amount of ice going back hundreds of years. After all there have been a

lot of ships using the Baltic for a very long time.



I've just had a look in my copy of HH Lamb's "Climate, History and the

Modern World" (though it's now a little out of date, being published in

1982, it's a fascinating read for anyone with an interest in climate

history). On p220 I found: "... the two winters with least Baltic ice as

shown by the over four hundred years long record of ice closing the port

of Riga occurred in 1651-2 and 1652-3; the winter of 1658-9 produced the

opposite extreme - much as the great Baltic ice winters of 1962-3 and

1965-6 occurred only a few years before the ice-free winter of 1974-5."



which makes me think how accurate any arctic sea ice records are

before satellites.



Certainly far less accurate and for nowhere near as long as for the

Baltic, simply because far less shipping ventures there (with the

exception of a few areas such as the journey around the top of

Scandinavia to Archangel).

--

John Hall

"Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable

of giving pleasure to thousands and all you can do is scratch it."

Sir Thomas Beecham (1879-1961) to a lady cellist

Thanks John that is the point I was trying to make. The Baltic was very important for with the Hanseatic League depending upon ice free shipping. So if those records are scant for such a busy area how do we know the extent of the Arctic ice through the centuries . That would therefore follow that we don't have any idea if the Arctic ice had on occasions dropped to lower levels than 2007.

Alastair take note.

In article ,
Lawrence13 writes:
The Baltic was very important for with the Hanseatic League
depending upon ice free shipping. So if those records are scant for
such a busy area how do we know the extent of the Arctic ice
through the centuries . That would therefore follow that we don't
have any idea if the Arctic ice had on occasions dropped to lower
levels than 2007.

I suppose we have a little idea about Arctic ice in the past from
attempts to find the NW and NE passages, but of course those attempts
would all have been made in late summer when the ice would be likely to
be close to its minimum from the year. There would also be some data for
the period 1893-1902 from Nansen's voyages in the Fram:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fram

There's also some interesting stuff on Wikipedia regarding expeditions
to and settlements in Greenland from Denmark between 1500 and 1814:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenla...0.E2.80.931814

But it's clear that the ice data must be very patchy, both in terms of
where and when, and almost all descriptive in nature rather than
measured. And of course the further you go back the less data there is.
It seems possible to me that at the peak of the Medieval Warm Period,
when there were Viking settlements in coastal areas of southern
Greenland, there might have been less ice in the Arctic than now. Of
course after the MWP it didn't carry on getting warmer but got colder
again (finishing off those Viking settlements), whereas those of us that
believe that long-term AGW is underway because of increasing CO2 can't
see that happening this time.
--
John Hall
"Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable
of giving pleasure to thousands and all you can do is scratch it."
Sir Thomas Beecham (1879-1961) to a lady cellist

On 06/04/13 21:34, John Hall wrote:
In ,
writes:
The Baltic was very important for with the Hanseatic League
depending upon ice free shipping. So if those records are scant for
such a busy area how do we know the extent of the Arctic ice
through the centuries . That would therefore follow that we don't
have any idea if the Arctic ice had on occasions dropped to lower
levels than 2007.

I suppose we have a little idea about Arctic ice in the past from
attempts to find the NW and NE passages, but of course those attempts
would all have been made in late summer when the ice would be likely to
be close to its minimum from the year. There would also be some data for
the period 1893-1902 from Nansen's voyages in the Fram:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fram

There's also some interesting stuff on Wikipedia regarding expeditions
to and settlements in Greenland from Denmark between 1500 and 1814:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenla...0.E2.80.931814

But it's clear that the ice data must be very patchy, both in terms of
where and when, and almost all descriptive in nature rather than
measured. And of course the further you go back the less data there is.
It seems possible to me that at the peak of the Medieval Warm Period,
when there were Viking settlements in coastal areas of southern
Greenland, there might have been less ice in the Arctic than now. Of
course after the MWP it didn't carry on getting warmer but got colder
again (finishing off those Viking settlements), whereas those of us that
believe that long-term AGW is underway because of increasing CO2 can't
see that happening this time.

Probably worth noting that the MWP was not a global phenomenon.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/medi...arm-period.htm

On Saturday, 6 April 2013 23:22:10 UTC+1, Adam Lea wrote:
On 06/04/13 21:34, John Hall wrote:

In ,

writes:

The Baltic was very important for with the Hanseatic League

depending upon ice free shipping. So if those records are scant for

such a busy area how do we know the extent of the Arctic ice

through the centuries . That would therefore follow that we don't

have any idea if the Arctic ice had on occasions dropped to lower

levels than 2007.



I suppose we have a little idea about Arctic ice in the past from

attempts to find the NW and NE passages, but of course those attempts

would all have been made in late summer when the ice would be likely to

be close to its minimum from the year. There would also be some data for

the period 1893-1902 from Nansen's voyages in the Fram:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fram



There's also some interesting stuff on Wikipedia regarding expeditions

to and settlements in Greenland from Denmark between 1500 and 1814:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenla...0.E2.80.931814



But it's clear that the ice data must be very patchy, both in terms of

where and when, and almost all descriptive in nature rather than

measured. And of course the further you go back the less data there is.

It seems possible to me that at the peak of the Medieval Warm Period,

when there were Viking settlements in coastal areas of southern

Greenland, there might have been less ice in the Arctic than now. Of

course after the MWP it didn't carry on getting warmer but got colder

again (finishing off those Viking settlements), whereas those of us that

believe that long-term AGW is underway because of increasing CO2 can't

see that happening this time.



Probably worth noting that the MWP was not a global phenomenon.



http://www.skepticalscience.com/medi...arm-period.htm


Oh really, what ********. How do you know that.


The so called scientist said in 2000 that snow was a thing of the past and you are telling us that the MWP was local!!!!


Good grief, how can you make such statements linking a website as if gospe, full of liars and fabricators of several hockey sticks.

Keep those premiums rising Adam

In article ,
Adam Lea writes:
Probably worth noting that the MWP was not a global
phenomenon.

Good point.


http://www.skepticalscience.com/medi...arm-period.htm

Which makes one wonder if that website's putting down to increased solar
activity and less vulcanism is correct, as you'd expect at least the
first - and possibly the second - to have a global rather than a
regional impact. The suggestion mentioned that it was linked to a
variation in ocean currents might be closer to the mark - and I suppose
that could have been triggered by a change in solar activity or
vulcanism.
--
John Hall
"Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable
of giving pleasure to thousands and all you can do is scratch it."
Sir Thomas Beecham (1879-1961) to a lady cellist