On Tuesday, 23 September 2014 19:07:23 UTC+1, Dawlish wrote:
On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 5:57:02 PM UTC+1, Lawrence Jenkins wrote:

On Tuesday, 23 September 2014 17:33:57 UTC+1, Dawlish wrote:





After all he's been shown and told, he still believes exactly the same lies and crap as he did before.



Truly laughable.



Your inability to accept facts is pitiful.



Projection is a recognised mental illness, you know.


Its also in your case called indecent exposure

On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 7:25:32 PM UTC+1, Lawrence Jenkins wrote:


Again, this really is you:

"To a poster on alt.g-w

Arsehole, ****, WTF, F**cking hell, smart-arse

Its because of the use of Co2 that you have any decendents you ****. 05/03/2010



And to another poster on alt.g-w.

On Friday, 14 June 2013 07:38:55 UTC+1,
- show quoted text -
Oh **** off, you demented ****

http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/i...timeseries.png

08/08/2014

To different posters on UK. Sci weather when they didn't agree with his far right-wing and xenophobic, UK-hating views:

a) 'You are a ****** and there is no higher wanking exponent of the new religion than you.' 'Hail the highest Wanking exponent of lefty lies and faux intellectual diarrhoea' 'What a twonk'. 'Now **** off and only respond to me when you've grown some (balls; after he'd made another stupid threat)' .
b) Ken that 's all you left goons are capable of and all the potential problems that now exist are precisely because of ****s like you.

To me 12/08/2014 "You are a total dick head"

16/08/04 Oi! **** head........ (when he couldn't do a simple search for a graph of sea ice volume). Then: You are a liar and no such graph exists. Errrrr. It does; he resorted to saying that when he showed he wasn't bright enough to find it, even though it's been posted for him at least half-a-dozen times before.

Then, in follow up:

Excuse me but I thought you'd linked it you ignorant PIG.

I hadn't. I'd told you to find it, as it's hardly difficult.

What an arsehole you are.

Then: "I reserve the right to call you the tosser that you are"."

And the worst he's ever got from me are sharp arguments, which he cannot counter and the word 'idiot' when he posts idiocy.

On Tuesday, 23 September 2014 02:50:16 UTC-7, Graham P Davis wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:31:06 +0100

Joe Egginton wrote:



On 23/09/2014 08:52, Graham P Davis wrote:

Although _scientific_ discussion of climate change has long been

allowed for in this group's constitution, I realise that some

people are bored by it and that is why I prefix the title with

"[CC]" in the same way that "[WR]" and "[OBS]" were introduced so

that such threads could be filtered out by uninterested parties.



Any road up, here's the link:



http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/20...nimum-reached/





WHY is the arctic shrinking and the antarctic growing?



It's getting warmer.



Arctic sea and land ice is melting. Any fresh water from melting land

ice is quickly lost from the area, carried south and mixed with

warmer, saline water.



Antarctic land ice is melting. Increased fresh water largely remains

within Antarctic waters, circling eastwards, making formation of sea-ice

easier.


It isn't getting warmer on land, and even If it did its got a long way to warm before it produces fresh water.

If there is any drop in salinity of the southern ocean, and you need to prove that first, the fresh water must come from another source.

On Tuesday, 23 September 2014 02:50:16 UTC-7, Graham P Davis wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:31:06 +0100



You cant provide an answer then? If there is no evidence salinity is declining then your theory is shot to pieces.

On Wednesday, 24 September 2014 18:53:46 UTC+1, matt_sykes wrote:
On Tuesday, 23 September 2014 02:50:16 UTC-7, Graham P Davis wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:31:06 +0100







You cant provide an answer then? If there is no evidence salinity is declining then your theory is shot to pieces.

Of course he can't and the last time he tried he achieved a triple A when he totally got the Antarctic and the arctic arse upwards with the Piomass link for the SH .

As far as I can ascertain the satellite don't measure the poles and the only temp record for Antarctica has been kept at the 13 international stations.. Now that is pretty scant but they show no overall warming so then we are told that the west Antarctic and the peninsula is being warmed by warm ocean currents exclusively caused by AGW. We know there are man made ocean currents at work melting the glaciers from below by the record breaking sea ice which is always a sure sign on melting caused by warming.

I think we all are acquainted with the Bosberg-Hindsink experiment where you unplug your refrigerator on a hot summers day and come cack half an hour to find the kitchen and all the crockery completely frozen , Of course we know this as the frozen China Syndrome.



I urge everyone to try that experiment and wipe the smug smiles of the sceptics faces.

1. "Large Multidecadal Salinity Trends near the Pacific–Antarctic Continental Margin"

Stanley S. Jacobs and Claudia F. Giulivi
Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University, Palisades, New York.

http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/full...2010JCLI3284.1

"Ocean temperature and salinity measurements on and near the Antarctic continental shelf in the southwest Pacific sector are evaluated for evidence of temporal change.

Shelf water in the southwest Ross Sea has declined in salinity by 0.03 decade−1 from 1958 to 2008, while its temperatures have increased in
proportion to the influence of salinity on the sea surface freezing point.

Modified deep-water intrusions that reach the central Ross Ice Shelf have freshened at a similar rate and cooled by ∼0.5°C since the late 1970s. Salinity has decreased by 0.08 decade−1 in the westward coastal and slope front currents, consistent with increased melting of continental ice upstream in the Amundsen Sea."

Further reading:

2. "Rapid sea-level rise along the Antarctic margins in response to increased glacial discharge".

Craig D. Rye, Alberto C. Naveira Garabato, Paul R. Holland, Michael P. Meredith, A. J. George Nurser, Chris W. Hughes, Andrew C. Coward & David J. Webb.

http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v.../ngeo2230.html

"The Antarctic shelf seas are [...] at present receiving increasing amounts of freshwater from the melting of the Antarctic Ice Sheet and its fringing ice shelves, primarily around the Antarctic Peninsula and the Amundsen Sea.. In response, the surface ocean salinity in this region has declined in past decades".

A few citations:

Shepherd, A. et al. A reconciled estimate of ice-sheet mass balance. Science 338, 1183–1189 (2012). http://www.sciencemag.org/content/338/6111/1183

Shepherd, A., Wingham, D. & Rignot, E. Warm ocean is eroding West Antarctic Ice Sheet. Geophys. Res. Lett. 31, L23402 (2004). http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21106/abstract

Jacobs, S. S., Giulivi, C. F. & Mele, P. A. Freshening of the Ross Sea during the late 20th century. Science 297, 386–389 (2002). http://www.sciencemag.org/content/297/5580/386

Aoki, S., Rintoul, S. R., Ushio, S., Watanabe, S. & Bindoff, N. L. Freshening of the Adélie Land bottom water near 140° E. Geophys. Res. Lett. 32, L23601 (2005). http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...24246/abstract

Johnson, G. C., Purkey, S. G. & Bullister, J. L. Warming and freshening in the abyssal Southeastern Indian Ocean*. J. Clim. 21, 5351–5363 (2008). http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/...2008JCLI2384.1


---------------


I'd have thought that you'd have stepped away from trying sensibly to discuss anything to do with Earth sciences after your lamentable efforts on a previous thread.

But just for a laugh, what "other source" do you think there is for fresh water in the Antarctic-Pacific margin?

Stephen.

"Graham P Davis" wrote in message
news:20140923085248.18f0eb6b@linux-omey...
Although _scientific_ discussion of climate change has long been allowed
for in this group's constitution, I realise that some people are bored
by it and that is why I prefix the title with "[CC]" in the same way
that "[WR]" and "[OBS]" were introduced so that such threads could be
filtered out by uninterested parties.

Any road up, here's the link:

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/20...nimum-reached/

--
Graham P Davis, Bracknell, Berks. Mail: 'newsman' not 'newsboy'.
"Minds are like parachutes. They only function when they're open". -
Lord Dewar (1864-1930)

I am just back from a Royal Society meeting on the Arctic sea ice. There was
one talk on the Antarctic sea ice. The reason given for its expansion was
meteorological, not physical! It appears that sea ice grows, in both the
Antarctic and Arctic during cyclones. With the warmer seas due to AGW, the
winter cyclones in Antarctica are becoming more intense. The air temperature
over the continent has not increased so the very cold katabatic winds from
there are even stronger since they now replace warmer air around the
continent. It is these cyclonic winds which are growing the ice.

It should be possible to confirm this as the Antarctic ice has grown quickly
over the last few days and there should be reports of storms in the regions
where the ice has grown. Does any have know where that info. can be found?

Cheers, Alastair.

On Wednesday, 24 September 2014 21:14:24 UTC+1, Alastair wrote:
"Graham P Davis" wrote in message

news:20140923085248.18f0eb6b@linux-omey...

Although _scientific_ discussion of climate change has long been allowed

for in this group's constitution, I realise that some people are bored

by it and that is why I prefix the title with "[CC]" in the same way

that "[WR]" and "[OBS]" were introduced so that such threads could be

filtered out by uninterested parties.



Any road up, here's the link:



http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/20...nimum-reached/



--

Graham P Davis, Bracknell, Berks. Mail: 'newsman' not 'newsboy'.

"Minds are like parachutes. They only function when they're open". -

Lord Dewar (1864-1930)



I am just back from a Royal Society meeting on the Arctic sea ice. There was

one talk on the Antarctic sea ice. The reason given for its expansion was

meteorological, not physical! It appears that sea ice grows, in both the

Antarctic and Arctic during cyclones. With the warmer seas due to AGW, the

winter cyclones in Antarctica are becoming more intense. The air temperature

over the continent has not increased so the very cold katabatic winds from

there are even stronger since they now replace warmer air around the

continent. It is these cyclonic winds which are growing the ice.



It should be possible to confirm this as the Antarctic ice has grown quickly

over the last few days and there should be reports of storms in the regions

where the ice has grown. Does any have know where that info. can be found?



Cheers, Alastair.









The same experts that said the Arctic summer ice would be gone by 2013 and never once in their settled science outlook said the Antarctic sea ice would grow are now telling us that cyclones in the Antarctic make the sea ice grow in the NH it makes the sea ice shrink. Welcome to the bizarre world of academics who by hook or by crook will try and rationalise any intuitive cooling evidence as really an artifact of warming. Oops sorry human caused warming.


Was the talk by someone from UKMO? If it was you should have asked them why they hide away all their AGW based predictions for British weather i.e. More BBQ summers, wetter winters, dryer winters, milder winters, colder winters, dryer summers, wetter summers and it goes on.

I recently searched on UKMO for the glowing congratulations they gave to Al Gore and the IPCC when they collectively won the Nobel Peace prize. Of course that had gone, been archived and I wonder why? Can't be data size, not for the organisation that has spent millions upon millions on IT equipment so a few gigabytes to store all their statements shouldn't be an issue but it seems it is? I can't quite work that out when half of their resources and website space is dedicated to AGW so you'd think the Al Gore statement would be there for all to see?

On Wednesday, 24 September 2014 20:19:59 UTC+1, Stephen Davenport wrote:
1. "Large Multidecadal Salinity Trends near the Pacific–Antarctic Continental Margin"



Stanley S. Jacobs and Claudia F. Giulivi

Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University, Palisades, New York.



http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/full...2010JCLI3284.1



"Ocean temperature and salinity measurements on and near the Antarctic continental shelf in the southwest Pacific sector are evaluated for evidence of temporal change.



Shelf water in the southwest Ross Sea has declined in salinity by 0.03 decade−1 from 1958 to 2008, while its temperatures have increased in

proportion to the influence of salinity on the sea surface freezing point..



Modified deep-water intrusions that reach the central Ross Ice Shelf have freshened at a similar rate and cooled by ∼0.5°C since the late 1970s. Salinity has decreased by 0.08 decade−1 in the westward coastal and slope front currents, consistent with increased melting of continental ice upstream in the Amundsen Sea."



Further reading:



2. "Rapid sea-level rise along the Antarctic margins in response to increased glacial discharge".



Craig D. Rye, Alberto C. Naveira Garabato, Paul R. Holland, Michael P. Meredith, A. J. George Nurser, Chris W. Hughes, Andrew C. Coward & David J. Webb.



http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v.../ngeo2230.html



"The Antarctic shelf seas are [...] at present receiving increasing amounts of freshwater from the melting of the Antarctic Ice Sheet and its fringing ice shelves, primarily around the Antarctic Peninsula and the Amundsen Sea. In response, the surface ocean salinity in this region has declined in past decades".



A few citations:



Shepherd, A. et al. A reconciled estimate of ice-sheet mass balance. Science 338, 1183–1189 (2012). http://www.sciencemag.org/content/338/6111/1183



Shepherd, A., Wingham, D. & Rignot, E. Warm ocean is eroding West Antarctic Ice Sheet. Geophys. Res. Lett. 31, L23402 (2004). http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21106/abstract



Jacobs, S. S., Giulivi, C. F. & Mele, P. A. Freshening of the Ross Sea during the late 20th century. Science 297, 386–389 (2002). http://www..sciencemag.org/content/297/5580/386



Aoki, S., Rintoul, S. R., Ushio, S., Watanabe, S. & Bindoff, N. L. Freshening of the Adélie Land bottom water near 140° E. Geophys. Res. Lett. 32, L23601 (2005). http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...24246/abstract



Johnson, G. C., Purkey, S. G. & Bullister, J. L. Warming and freshening in the abyssal Southeastern Indian Ocean*. J. Clim. 21, 5351–5363 (2008). http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/...2008JCLI2384.1





---------------





I'd have thought that you'd have stepped away from trying sensibly to discuss anything to do with Earth sciences after your lamentable efforts on a previous thread.



But just for a laugh, what "other source" do you think there is for fresh water in the Antarctic-Pacific margin?



Stephen.


Okay then Stephen am I reading this chart correctly

http://d32ogoqmya1dw8.cloudfront.net...g_salinity.gif

It shows global ocean salinity and from what I can sea that there if far more fresh water in the arctic oceans than the Antarctic oceans which is odd as the Arctic if based on the latest lower salinity theory should show far more sea ice growth than the Antarctic which has far higher salinity.

Is there another explanation?

"Graham P Davis" wrote in message
news:20140923105016.6c2a27be@linux-omey...
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:31:06 +0100
Joe Egginton wrote:

On 23/09/2014 08:52, Graham P Davis wrote:
Although _scientific_ discussion of climate change has long been
allowed for in this group's constitution, I realise that some
people are bored by it and that is why I prefix the title with
"[CC]" in the same way that "[WR]" and "[OBS]" were introduced so
that such threads could be filtered out by uninterested parties.

Any road up, here's the link:

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/20...nimum-reached/


WHY is the arctic shrinking and the antarctic growing?

It's getting warmer.

Arctic sea and land ice is melting. Any fresh water from melting land
ice is quickly lost from the area, carried south and mixed with
warmer, saline water.

Antarctic land ice is melting. Increased fresh water largely remains
within Antarctic waters, circling eastwards, making formation of sea-ice
easier.

Having just sent my previous post, I then read this about the increasing
sea ice around Antarctica:

"Factors like increasing fresh water and higher wind speeds promote ice
growth and expansion-factors that appear to be dominating right now."
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOT...8&src=eoa-iotd

So it is both fresh water and more storms that is causing the sea ice to
increase..

Cheers, Alastair.