"Alastair McDonald" k wrote in
message ...

"Keith Dancey" wrote in message
...
In article , "Alastair McDonald"
k writes:

"Fears over increase in skin cancer as scientists report that climate
change
continues to destroy the earth's protection." See;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/scien...471075,00.html

This article provides confirmation to me that the ozone layer over the NH
could be the cause of this year's "cooler" spring.


How might reduced stratospheric ozone reduce tropospheric temperature?

Because the ozone is not trapping the radiation in the stratosphere, the
stratosphere is cooler. The stratosphere forms an inversion layer at the
tropopause and this temperature controls the average temperature at the
surface via a standard lapse rate.

Putting it another way, the tropopause temperature is the minimum temperature
of the troposphere. An ozone hole will reduce that minimum temperature and
so all the tropopause can become cooler.

Or, say, increased Solar UV penetration reduce surface temperature?

IMHO, The high energy photons of UV light tend to be absorbed by latent heat
and so cause little sensible heating.

And is this year's Northern Hemisphere spring and cooler than usual, anyway?

It is cooler than it would be due to global warming.


Alastair, what controls the average temperature at the surface is *not* the
tropopause temperature. It is due to a combination of radiation effects both
longwave and shortwave which in turn are non-linearly dependent on surface
characteristics (albedo etc), moisture, cloud cover and the concentration of
"greenhouse gases". A lower tropopause temperature would imply both a deeper
troposphere in tropical airmasses and a shallower troposphere in arctic
airmasses.

Will.
--

" Stuff the thought police, I don't care anymore, I am free, I am me - quack
quack "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A COL BH site in East Dartmoor at Haytor, Devon 310m asl (1017 feet).

mailto:
www: http://www.lyneside.demon.co.uk

DISCLAIMER - All views and opinions expressed by myself are personal
and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Alastair McDonald" k wrote in
message ...

"Keith Dancey" wrote in message
...
In article , "Alastair McDonald"
k writes:

"Fears over increase in skin cancer as scientists report that climate
change
continues to destroy the earth's protection." See;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/scien...471075,00.html

This article provides confirmation to me that the ozone layer over the NH
could be the cause of this year's "cooler" spring.


How might reduced stratospheric ozone reduce tropospheric temperature?

Because the ozone is not trapping the radiation in the stratosphere, the
stratosphere is cooler. The stratosphere forms an inversion layer at the
tropopause and this temperature controls the average temperature at the
surface via a standard lapse rate.

Putting it another way, the tropopause temperature is the minimum temperature
of the troposphere. An ozone hole will reduce that minimum temperature and
so all the tropopause can become cooler.

Or, say, increased Solar UV penetration reduce surface temperature?

IMHO, The high energy photons of UV light tend to be absorbed by latent heat
and so cause little sensible heating.

And is this year's Northern Hemisphere spring and cooler than usual, anyway?

It is cooler than it would be due to global warming.


Alastair, what controls the average temperature at the surface is *not* the
tropopause temperature. It is due to a combination of radiation effects both
longwave and shortwave which in turn are non-linearly dependent on surface
characteristics (albedo etc), moisture, cloud cover and the concentration of
"greenhouse gases". A lower tropopause temperature would imply both a deeper
troposphere in tropical airmasses and a shallower troposphere in arctic
airmasses.

Will.
--

" Stuff the thought police, I don't care anymore, I am free, I am me - quack
quack "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A COL BH site in East Dartmoor at Haytor, Devon 310m asl (1017 feet).

mailto:
www: http://www.lyneside.demon.co.uk

DISCLAIMER - All views and opinions expressed by myself are personal
and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Alastair McDonald" k wrote in
message ...

"Keith Dancey" wrote in message
...
In article , "Alastair McDonald"
k writes:

"Fears over increase in skin cancer as scientists report that climate
change
continues to destroy the earth's protection." See;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/scien...471075,00.html

This article provides confirmation to me that the ozone layer over the NH
could be the cause of this year's "cooler" spring.


How might reduced stratospheric ozone reduce tropospheric temperature?

Because the ozone is not trapping the radiation in the stratosphere, the
stratosphere is cooler. The stratosphere forms an inversion layer at the
tropopause and this temperature controls the average temperature at the
surface via a standard lapse rate.

Putting it another way, the tropopause temperature is the minimum temperature
of the troposphere. An ozone hole will reduce that minimum temperature and
so all the tropopause can become cooler.

Or, say, increased Solar UV penetration reduce surface temperature?

IMHO, The high energy photons of UV light tend to be absorbed by latent heat
and so cause little sensible heating.

And is this year's Northern Hemisphere spring and cooler than usual, anyway?

It is cooler than it would be due to global warming.


Alastair, what controls the average temperature at the surface is *not* the
tropopause temperature. It is due to a combination of radiation effects both
longwave and shortwave which in turn are non-linearly dependent on surface
characteristics (albedo etc), moisture, cloud cover and the concentration of
"greenhouse gases". A lower tropopause temperature would imply both a deeper
troposphere in tropical airmasses and a shallower troposphere in arctic
airmasses.

Will.
--

" Stuff the thought police, I don't care anymore, I am free, I am me - quack
quack "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A COL BH site in East Dartmoor at Haytor, Devon 310m asl (1017 feet).

mailto:
www: http://www.lyneside.demon.co.uk

DISCLAIMER - All views and opinions expressed by myself are personal
and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Will Hand" wrote in message
...

"Alastair McDonald" k wrote
in
message ...

"Keith Dancey" wrote in message
...

How might reduced stratospheric ozone reduce tropospheric temperature?

Because the ozone is not trapping the radiation in the stratosphere, the
stratosphere is cooler. The stratosphere forms an inversion layer at the
tropopause and this temperature controls the average temperature at the
surface via a standard lapse rate.

Alastair, what controls the average temperature at the surface is *not* the
tropopause temperature. It is due to a combination of radiation effects both
longwave and shortwave which in turn are non-linearly dependent on surface
characteristics (albedo etc), moisture, cloud cover and the concentration of
"greenhouse gases".

I did not mean to imply that the stratospheric temperature was the only
control
on the average surface temperature. I was attempting to answer Keith's
question. The factors you list all affect the lapse rate. If one assumes
that
the lapse rate does not change, and the height of the tropopause remains
constant, then it is easy to see how the surface temperature changes with
that of the tropopause. In other words, if the things you list remain
unchanged, then a cooling of the stratosphere will lead to a cooling at the
surface. Or are you denying that?

Cheers, Alastair.

"Will Hand" wrote in message
...

"Alastair McDonald" k wrote
in
message ...

"Keith Dancey" wrote in message
...

How might reduced stratospheric ozone reduce tropospheric temperature?

Because the ozone is not trapping the radiation in the stratosphere, the
stratosphere is cooler. The stratosphere forms an inversion layer at the
tropopause and this temperature controls the average temperature at the
surface via a standard lapse rate.

Alastair, what controls the average temperature at the surface is *not* the
tropopause temperature. It is due to a combination of radiation effects both
longwave and shortwave which in turn are non-linearly dependent on surface
characteristics (albedo etc), moisture, cloud cover and the concentration of
"greenhouse gases".

I did not mean to imply that the stratospheric temperature was the only
control
on the average surface temperature. I was attempting to answer Keith's
question. The factors you list all affect the lapse rate. If one assumes
that
the lapse rate does not change, and the height of the tropopause remains
constant, then it is easy to see how the surface temperature changes with
that of the tropopause. In other words, if the things you list remain
unchanged, then a cooling of the stratosphere will lead to a cooling at the
surface. Or are you denying that?

Cheers, Alastair.

"Will Hand" wrote in message
...

"Alastair McDonald" k wrote
in
message ...

"Keith Dancey" wrote in message
...

How might reduced stratospheric ozone reduce tropospheric temperature?

Because the ozone is not trapping the radiation in the stratosphere, the
stratosphere is cooler. The stratosphere forms an inversion layer at the
tropopause and this temperature controls the average temperature at the
surface via a standard lapse rate.

Alastair, what controls the average temperature at the surface is *not* the
tropopause temperature. It is due to a combination of radiation effects both
longwave and shortwave which in turn are non-linearly dependent on surface
characteristics (albedo etc), moisture, cloud cover and the concentration of
"greenhouse gases".

I did not mean to imply that the stratospheric temperature was the only
control
on the average surface temperature. I was attempting to answer Keith's
question. The factors you list all affect the lapse rate. If one assumes
that
the lapse rate does not change, and the height of the tropopause remains
constant, then it is easy to see how the surface temperature changes with
that of the tropopause. In other words, if the things you list remain
unchanged, then a cooling of the stratosphere will lead to a cooling at the
surface. Or are you denying that?

Cheers, Alastair.

In article , "Alastair McDonald" k writes:

"Keith Dancey" wrote in message
...
In article , "Alastair McDonald"
writes:

"Fears over increase in skin cancer as scientists report that climate
change
continues to destroy the earth's protection." See;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/scien...471075,00.html

This article provides confirmation to me that the ozone layer over the NH
could be the cause of this year's "cooler" spring.


How might reduced stratospheric ozone reduce tropospheric temperature?

Because the ozone is not trapping the radiation in the stratosphere, the
stratosphere is cooler. The stratosphere forms an inversion layer at the
tropopause and this temperature controls the average temperature at the
surface via a standard lapse rate.

Putting it another way, the tropopause temperature is the minimum temperature
of the troposphere. An ozone hole will reduce that minimum temperature and
so all the tropopause can become cooler.


The stratosphere is cooler because greenhouse gases in the troposphere are
preventing a proportion of the outgoing longwave radiation from reaching it
and heating it. This drop in stratospheric temperatures increases the
efficiency of the photochemical reactions which destroy ozone...

The altitude of the tropopause adjusts to the changes in temperature of
the stratosphere, so your standard lapse rate still holds: the surface
temperature is not effected.



Or, say, increased Solar UV penetration reduce surface temperature?

IMHO, The high energy photons of UV light tend to be absorbed by latent heat
and so cause little sensible heating.


Ummmmm...




And is this year's Northern Hemisphere spring and cooler than usual, anyway?

It is cooler than it would be due to global warming.


There have been much greater ozone holes over the Antarctic, over a much longer
period of time, but I have not noticed Southern Hemisphere springs to be reported
as "cooler than expected".

There have also been Northern Hemisphere ozone holes before, too, but I have not
noticed any corresponding Northern Hemisphere spring-time "cooling".

If the correlation isn't showing up on the records, and the theory doesn't
hang together, then I think the idea is mistaken.


Cheers,

keith


---
Iraq: 6.5 thousand million pounds, 80 UK lives, and counting...
100,000+ civilian casualties, largely of coalition bombing...

In article , "Alastair McDonald" k writes:

"Keith Dancey" wrote in message
...
In article , "Alastair McDonald"
writes:

"Fears over increase in skin cancer as scientists report that climate
change
continues to destroy the earth's protection." See;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/scien...471075,00.html

This article provides confirmation to me that the ozone layer over the NH
could be the cause of this year's "cooler" spring.


How might reduced stratospheric ozone reduce tropospheric temperature?

Because the ozone is not trapping the radiation in the stratosphere, the
stratosphere is cooler. The stratosphere forms an inversion layer at the
tropopause and this temperature controls the average temperature at the
surface via a standard lapse rate.

Putting it another way, the tropopause temperature is the minimum temperature
of the troposphere. An ozone hole will reduce that minimum temperature and
so all the tropopause can become cooler.


The stratosphere is cooler because greenhouse gases in the troposphere are
preventing a proportion of the outgoing longwave radiation from reaching it
and heating it. This drop in stratospheric temperatures increases the
efficiency of the photochemical reactions which destroy ozone...

The altitude of the tropopause adjusts to the changes in temperature of
the stratosphere, so your standard lapse rate still holds: the surface
temperature is not effected.



Or, say, increased Solar UV penetration reduce surface temperature?

IMHO, The high energy photons of UV light tend to be absorbed by latent heat
and so cause little sensible heating.


Ummmmm...




And is this year's Northern Hemisphere spring and cooler than usual, anyway?

It is cooler than it would be due to global warming.


There have been much greater ozone holes over the Antarctic, over a much longer
period of time, but I have not noticed Southern Hemisphere springs to be reported
as "cooler than expected".

There have also been Northern Hemisphere ozone holes before, too, but I have not
noticed any corresponding Northern Hemisphere spring-time "cooling".

If the correlation isn't showing up on the records, and the theory doesn't
hang together, then I think the idea is mistaken.


Cheers,

keith


---
Iraq: 6.5 thousand million pounds, 80 UK lives, and counting...
100,000+ civilian casualties, largely of coalition bombing...

In article , "Alastair McDonald" k writes:

"Keith Dancey" wrote in message
...
In article , "Alastair McDonald"
writes:

"Fears over increase in skin cancer as scientists report that climate
change
continues to destroy the earth's protection." See;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/scien...471075,00.html

This article provides confirmation to me that the ozone layer over the NH
could be the cause of this year's "cooler" spring.


How might reduced stratospheric ozone reduce tropospheric temperature?

Because the ozone is not trapping the radiation in the stratosphere, the
stratosphere is cooler. The stratosphere forms an inversion layer at the
tropopause and this temperature controls the average temperature at the
surface via a standard lapse rate.

Putting it another way, the tropopause temperature is the minimum temperature
of the troposphere. An ozone hole will reduce that minimum temperature and
so all the tropopause can become cooler.


The stratosphere is cooler because greenhouse gases in the troposphere are
preventing a proportion of the outgoing longwave radiation from reaching it
and heating it. This drop in stratospheric temperatures increases the
efficiency of the photochemical reactions which destroy ozone...

The altitude of the tropopause adjusts to the changes in temperature of
the stratosphere, so your standard lapse rate still holds: the surface
temperature is not effected.



Or, say, increased Solar UV penetration reduce surface temperature?

IMHO, The high energy photons of UV light tend to be absorbed by latent heat
and so cause little sensible heating.


Ummmmm...




And is this year's Northern Hemisphere spring and cooler than usual, anyway?

It is cooler than it would be due to global warming.


There have been much greater ozone holes over the Antarctic, over a much longer
period of time, but I have not noticed Southern Hemisphere springs to be reported
as "cooler than expected".

There have also been Northern Hemisphere ozone holes before, too, but I have not
noticed any corresponding Northern Hemisphere spring-time "cooling".

If the correlation isn't showing up on the records, and the theory doesn't
hang together, then I think the idea is mistaken.


Cheers,

keith


---
Iraq: 6.5 thousand million pounds, 80 UK lives, and counting...
100,000+ civilian casualties, largely of coalition bombing...